Jodookus Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Pete, I have a few questions about the first two notes you put at the beginning of turns this turn cycle. You said: [1] Stable Wormhole Generator links can be used by anyone, not just you and your allies. The WG description mentioned that Total Allies could use your links, but made no mention of enemies or unknown aliens. They can, and the description has been updated accordingly. You should take care to defend your networks or they could become compromised by enemy ships. Though the link itself remains in the database forever, if the WG on either end does not happen to exist at the instant the jump occurs (destroyed, or more likely, dismantled), the link will not function until both sides have powered WG's. Dismantling, using and later reconstructing is one way to ensure the safety of your network. Another way would be to defend key positions in the web. For anyone who has attained Stable Wormhole Construction, will you send them the updated ANZ? Is this technically feasible? Or would we be required to 're-ANZ' this item? [2] Universal Gates currently use a simplified system of item loss that does not take into account the true distance between the Gates. This was never the intended mechanic, which will see some changes fairly soon. Once upgraded, you will no longer need to inform me of new Gate construction, and will be able to transfer items from any Universal Gate to any other so long as both sides have an active Gate. Item loss will be based on true distance between the stars involved, with a minimum loss for in-system transfers. Losses could potentially reach catastrophic levels, including 100% losses, for very long transfers. Distance will be calculated by raw distance and not warp jumps. Will you define what you mean when you say "will see some changes fairly soon"? Will this happen next turn? Will it be in two turns? Knowing will give those of us on a budget to plan ahead to issue orders that modify/cancel material transfer standing orders. JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 [1] Stable Wormhole Generator links can be used by anyone, not just you and your allies. The WG description mentioned that Total Allies could use your links, but made no mention of enemies or unknown aliens. They can, and the description has been updated accordingly. You should take care to defend your networks or they could become compromised by enemy ships. Though the link itself remains in the database forever, if the WG on either end does not happen to exist at the instant the jump occurs (destroyed, or more likely, dismantled), the link will not function until both sides have powered WG's. Dismantling, using and later reconstructing is one way to ensure the safety of your network. Another way would be to defend key positions in the web. Pete -- Per the description "The Generator is powered at that instant by the expenditure of 100,000 Caldaran Crystals from the pop group where the WG was constructed.". So would you mind explaining how and the heck an enemy ship could use the WG? I can just imagine this conversation on the ground: Tech 1: Looks like a Cyrillian Death Dreadnaught is approaching the WG. There feeding in the activation signal. Tech 2: Yep. Tell the boys to load up another 100,000 Caldaran Crystals in the generators. Tech 1: But, didn't the Cyrillians just destroy three of our colonies. Tech 2: Yep. Tech 1: And doesn't the worm hole lead straight to our home system? Tech 2: Yep. Tech 1: Would you stop it with the Yep's! We're going to power up the WG and allow our enemy to head into our home system?! Are you mad!!! Tech 2: Nope. I'm just a simple WG operator. I don't harkin to any of those complex politics. OK BOYS -- OPEN ER UP! This is why the use of the WG by only total allies made sense. Why would the pop group actually use up 100,000 Caldaran Crystals to power the thing unless it was a friendly ship. You're basically saying out Pop groups are so stupid, with their digits stuck up various orafices on the body, that they'll blindly use up our own resources to power WG's for enemies. Why, that make perfect sense to me. This whole explaination on WG's sounds more like the programming is not in place to make them work as described. So rather than fix the programming your changing the description so everyone is aware it doesn't work and can take actions to protect themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurassier Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 [1] Stable Wormhole Generator links can be used by anyone, not just you and your allies. The WG description mentioned that Total Allies could use your links, but made no mention of enemies or unknown aliens. They can, and the description has been updated accordingly. You should take care to defend your networks or they could become compromised by enemy ships. Though the link itself remains in the database forever, if the WG on either end does not happen to exist at the instant the jump occurs (destroyed, or more likely, dismantled), the link will not function until both sides have powered WG's. Dismantling, using and later reconstructing is one way to ensure the safety of your network. Another way would be to defend key positions in the web. Pete -- Per the description "The Generator is powered at that instant by the expenditure of 100,000 Caldaran Crystals from the pop group where the WG was constructed.". So would you mind explaining how and the heck an enemy ship could use the WG? I can just imagine this conversation on the ground: Tech 1: Looks like a Cyrillian Death Dreadnaught is approaching the WG. There feeding in the activation signal. Tech 2: Yep. Tell the boys to load up another 100,000 Caldaran Crystals in the generators. Tech 1: But, didn't the Cyrillians just destroy three of our colonies. Tech 2: Yep. Tech 1: And doesn't the worm hole lead straight to our home system? Tech 2: Yep. Tech 1: Would you stop it with the Yep's! We're going to power up the WG and allow our enemy to head into our home system?! Are you mad!!! Tech 2: Nope. I'm just a simple WG operator. I don't harkin to any of those complex politics. OK BOYS -- OPEN ER UP! This is why the use of the WG by only total allies made sense. Why would the pop group actually use up 100,000 Caldaran Crystals to power the thing unless it was a friendly ship. You're basically saying out Pop groups are so stupid, with their digits stuck up various orafices on the body, that they'll blindly use up our own resources to power WG's for enemies. Why, that make perfect sense to me. This whole explaination on WG's sounds more like the programming is not in place to make them work as described. So rather than fix the programming your changing the description so everyone is aware it doesn't work and can take actions to protect themselves. No argument from me, I'd suggest for now not putting C. Crystals in that pop group and do a TR order right before you warp. Hey, theres a use for those extra pop groups...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Miles Avatar Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 [1] Stable Wormhole Generator links can be used by anyone, not just you and your allies. The WG description mentioned that Total Allies could use your links, but made no mention of enemies or unknown aliens. They can, and the description has been updated accordingly. You should take care to defend your networks or they could become compromised by enemy ships. Though the link itself remains in the database forever, if the WG on either end does not happen to exist at the instant the jump occurs (destroyed, or more likely, dismantled), the link will not function until both sides have powered WG's. Dismantling, using and later reconstructing is one way to ensure the safety of your network. Another way would be to defend key positions in the web. Pete -- Per the description "The Generator is powered at that instant by the expenditure of 100,000 Caldaran Crystals from the pop group where the WG was constructed.". So would you mind explaining how and the heck an enemy ship could use the WG? I can just imagine this conversation on the ground: Tech 1: Looks like a Cyrillian Death Dreadnaught is approaching the WG. There feeding in the activation signal. Tech 2: Yep. Tell the boys to load up another 100,000 Caldaran Crystals in the generators. Tech 1: But, didn't the Cyrillians just destroy three of our colonies. Tech 2: Yep. Tech 1: And doesn't the worm hole lead straight to our home system? Tech 2: Yep. Tech 1: Would you stop it with the Yep's! We're going to power up the WG and allow our enemy to head into our home system?! Are you mad!!! Tech 2: Nope. I'm just a simple WG operator. I don't harkin to any of those complex politics. OK BOYS -- OPEN ER UP! This is why the use of the WG by only total allies made sense. Why would the pop group actually use up 100,000 Caldaran Crystals to power the thing unless it was a friendly ship. You're basically saying out Pop groups are so stupid, with their digits stuck up various orafices on the body, that they'll blindly use up our own resources to power WG's for enemies. Why, that make perfect sense to me. This whole explaination on WG's sounds more like the programming is not in place to make them work as described. So rather than fix the programming your changing the description so everyone is aware it doesn't work and can take actions to protect themselves. No argument from me, I'd suggest for now not putting C. Crystals in that pop group and do a TR order right before you warp. Hey, theres a use for those extra pop groups...... I think an enemy can use the wormhole generator if it can take control of the pop group that its built into. Not a hard thing to do really if its undefended. I dont think that an enemy should be able to use the generator if IT does not control the pop group. this would just not make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospective Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 [1] Stable Wormhole Generator links can be used by anyone, not just you and your allies. The WG description mentioned that Total Allies could use your links, but made no mention of enemies or unknown aliens. They can, and the description has been updated accordingly. You should take care to defend your networks or they could become compromised by enemy ships. Though the link itself remains in the database forever, if the WG on either end does not happen to exist at the instant the jump occurs (destroyed, or more likely, dismantled), the link will not function until both sides have powered WG's. Dismantling, using and later reconstructing is one way to ensure the safety of your network. Another way would be to defend key positions in the web. Pete -- Per the description "The Generator is powered at that instant by the expenditure of 100,000 Caldaran Crystals from the pop group where the WG was constructed.". So would you mind explaining how and the heck an enemy ship could use the WG? I can just imagine this conversation on the ground: Tech 1: Looks like a Cyrillian Death Dreadnaught is approaching the WG. There feeding in the activation signal. Tech 2: Yep. Tell the boys to load up another 100,000 Caldaran Crystals in the generators. Tech 1: But, didn't the Cyrillians just destroy three of our colonies. Tech 2: Yep. Tech 1: And doesn't the worm hole lead straight to our home system? Tech 2: Yep. Tech 1: Would you stop it with the Yep's! We're going to power up the WG and allow our enemy to head into our home system?! Are you mad!!! Tech 2: Nope. I'm just a simple WG operator. I don't harkin to any of those complex politics. OK BOYS -- OPEN ER UP! This is why the use of the WG by only total allies made sense. Why would the pop group actually use up 100,000 Caldaran Crystals to power the thing unless it was a friendly ship. You're basically saying out Pop groups are so stupid, with their digits stuck up various orafices on the body, that they'll blindly use up our own resources to power WG's for enemies. Why, that make perfect sense to me. This whole explaination on WG's sounds more like the programming is not in place to make them work as described. So rather than fix the programming your changing the description so everyone is aware it doesn't work and can take actions to protect themselves. No argument from me, I'd suggest for now not putting C. Crystals in that pop group and do a TR order right before you warp. Hey, theres a use for those extra pop groups...... I think an enemy can use the wormhole generator if it can take control of the pop group that its built into. Not a hard thing to do really if its undefended. I dont think that an enemy should be able to use the generator if IT does not control the pop group. this would just not make sense. That's a real good point. Seems that if it takes 100,000 Caldaran Crystals to operate the Wormhole, then why would a popgroup expend them unless they are allied with the ships attempting to traverse the wormhole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damiano Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 I can also see a situation where an enemy can drop the Caldaran's at an enemies pop group and use it even if they have gone to the effort of removing all the necessary operating materials. "Sir, the enemy is helpfully providing us with the caldaran crystal that HW won't. Their cargo ships have just unloaded them." "Sorry Liuetenant, who helped them unload, the unions?" "Sir, they're in dispute over the hazard pay to run the docks in a hostile environment, so they say scr*w the homeworld" I think this needs to be addressed, I understand it's a game mechanic thingy, but there has to be a coding answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 As someone suggested, perhaps it works this way: The Cyrillian Death Dreadnaught fleet approaches the lightly defended colony of Gamilon 6. After reviewing the battle plan, Admiral Tig-sirch orders the fleet into action. Within seconds well armed fighters sweep down over the colony to secure the skies and steralize a landing zone for the troop transports next to the planets WG. Landing craft begin to discourage a rapid strike force which quickly move on the ill defended WG. Within moments the WG is theirs. The troops then fan out to build a secure zone around the WG, protected by the mother ships fighters. Booby traps are laid around the complex to discourage any of the colonists from approaching the WG. With the area secure, phase 2 can begin. Cargo barges start shuttling down large amounts of Caldaran Crystals, enough to power the WG. The operation takes several cycles, but the stunned colonists can do nothing but watch as the WG is powered up. Then the retreat begins. Troops board their ships and head into space while fighters continue to patrol. At last the fighters move into space back to their carriers, even as the wormhole opens. They've planned well for the booby traps around the installation prevent any colonists from getting close to the WG as the wormwhole is punched through space to the Karigan home system. Finally the great Cyrillian fleet moves through the wormhole, in an attempt to surprise their foe. That would make sense. Some type of military action to secure the WG and use it. Of course in this game all they have to do is OC a cargo of crystals to the colony, then warp away happy as clams (or insects, or giant octipi, or whatever their racial form is). Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Miles Avatar Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 As someone suggested, perhaps it works this way: The Cyrillian Death Dreadnaught fleet approaches the lightly defended colony of Gamilon 6. After reviewing the battle plan, Admiral Tig-sirch orders the fleet into action. Within seconds well armed fighters sweep down over the colony to secure the skies and steralize a landing zone for the troop transports next to the planets WG. Landing craft begin to discourage a rapid strike force which quickly move on the ill defended WG. Within moments the WG is theirs. The troops then fan out to build a secure zone around the WG, protected by the mother ships fighters. Booby traps are laid around the complex to discourage any of the colonists from approaching the WG. With the area secure, phase 2 can begin. Cargo barges start shuttling down large amounts of Caldaran Crystals, enough to power the WG. The operation takes several cycles, but the stunned colonists can do nothing but watch as the WG is powered up. Then the retreat begins. Troops board their ships and head into space while fighters continue to patrol. At last the fighters move into space back to their carriers, even as the wormhole opens. They've planned well for the booby traps around the installation prevent any colonists from getting close to the WG as the wormwhole is punched through space to the Karigan home system. Finally the great Cyrillian fleet moves through the wormhole, in an attempt to surprise their foe. That would make sense. Some type of military action to secure the WG and use it. Of course in this game all they have to do is OC a cargo of crystals to the colony, then warp away happy as clams (or insects, or giant octipi, or whatever their racial form is). Sigh. There could be away around that as well. Why not allow pop groups to globally exclude resources so they could refuse shipments of say caladran crystals. This would force a ground battle to take control of the WG pop group so the enemy cant just OC the caladran crystals. They would have to take control of the pop group with ground forces and then use the WG. The idea of an enemy just dropping of caladran crystals to use any warp gate they want just doesnt seem right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 There could be away around that as well. Why not allow pop groups to globally exclude resources so they could refuse shipments of say caladran crystals. This would force a ground battle to take control of the WG pop group so the enemy cant just OC the caladran crystals. They would have to take control of the pop group with ground forces and then use the WG. The idea of an enemy just dropping of caladran crystals to use any warp gate they want just doesnt seem right. Or maybe they could have the ability to refuse OC's from others based on PAP levels? I mean, perhaps you could have a Pop group set to "Z" so it refuses all trade with all ships, or "Q" and it refuses all trade with non-aligned or at war species (or something along these lines). Sigh .. since the warp connection remains in the database once set-up and can be used only as long as the gates are constructed on both ends, the suggested solution from Pete is best. You have to waste your orders to CON the warp gate, warp through, and then DISM the warp gate, any time you want to use it, just to be safe. If you do this in your home system where you probably have a gate, at least no one can warp in in unless they happen to do a warp on order pulses your gate is built. Note there are three points where this can occur. (1) if their warp order is processed after your CON order on pulse 1 (2) During the pulse you are warping your ships (3) if their warp order is processed before your DISM is processed on pulse 3. OH .. here's a solution I like. I you issue a warp order on a WG, and the end terminus is not consturcted, the warp will open and your ships can enter .. only to go into oblivion as there is no exit point. That's the code I want to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Miles Avatar Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 There could be away around that as well. Why not allow pop groups to globally exclude resources so they could refuse shipments of say caladran crystals. This would force a ground battle to take control of the WG pop group so the enemy cant just OC the caladran crystals. They would have to take control of the pop group with ground forces and then use the WG. The idea of an enemy just dropping of caladran crystals to use any warp gate they want just doesnt seem right. Or maybe they could have the ability to refuse OC's from others based on PAP levels? I mean, perhaps you could have a Pop group set to "Z" so it refuses all trade with all ships, or "Q" and it refuses all trade with non-aligned or at war species (or something along these lines). Sigh .. since the warp connection remains in the database once set-up and can be used only as long as the gates are constructed on both ends, the suggested solution from Pete is best. You have to waste your orders to CON the warp gate, warp through, and then DISM the warp gate, any time you want to use it, just to be safe. If you do this in your home system where you probably have a gate, at least no one can warp in in unless they happen to do a warp on order pulses your gate is built. Note there are three points where this can occur. (1) if their warp order is processed after your CON order on pulse 1 (2) During the pulse you are warping your ships (3) if their warp order is processed before your DISM is processed on pulse 3. OH .. here's a solution I like. I you issue a warp order on a WG, and the end terminus is not consturcted, the warp will open and your ships can enter .. only to go into oblivion as there is no exit point. That's the code I want to see. oooo. I like that too! A vicious nasty trap which will DEMAND that the enemy wanting to use the WG will need to take control of the both POP groups. Of course there will be at least 1 turns worth of warning due to the mechanics of the game as the enemy will not know the pop group ID located on the planet in order to OC the crystals and therefore the owner of the WG could DISM the gate on the very 1st pulse on the next turn after discovering that it has been found. Or you could always send an email to Pete to delete the link from the database. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 What I want is a WG order that would go something like this: WG, 140, Gamalon, 6a IN other words, have the 140th fleet attempt to use the WG at their position to dial into the WG at Gamalon 6a, and jump to that location. In other words, no preset destinations. The WG could dial into any WG if within 5 jumps. I know, too Star Gate like, right. But, if we have to take all sorts of actions to protect our WG's and prevent enemies from using them, then I want more flexibility in using them. I can dream, can't I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damiano Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 If Enemy ships can use your warp gate then this begs the obvious question, how big is the WP size? i.e. how many ships can come through a gate you control straight into the teeth of Planetary defences? I am assuming it's size 1 as this is a man made construct, not a natural occurance. That alone should discourage hostile usage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 If Enemy ships can use your warp gate then this begs the obvious question, how big is the WP size? i.e. how many ships can come through a gate you control straight into the teeth of Planetary defences? I am assuming it's size 1 as this is a man made construct, not a natural occurance. That alone should discourage hostile usage. That's assuming it goes to a HW. Since each planet can have one gate, if your HW is part of a line of gates to move items rapidly, the gate may go to a moon or another planet in the home system. Hmmm .. I guess that means we should rebuild our gate paths so gates into key HW systems go only to the HW. Make these points spokes off a set of gates so you can control access to the whole system more easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
looker Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 If Enemy ships can use your warp gate then this begs the obvious question, how big is the WP size? i.e. how many ships can come through a gate you control straight into the teeth of Planetary defences? I am assuming it's size 1 as this is a man made construct, not a natural occurance. That alone should discourage hostile usage. It stays open long enough for the whole fleet to zip thru. If you need more see me by the starlight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Miles Avatar Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 If Enemy ships can use your warp gate then this begs the obvious question, how big is the WP size? i.e. how many ships can come through a gate you control straight into the teeth of Planetary defences? I am assuming it's size 1 as this is a man made construct, not a natural occurance. That alone should discourage hostile usage. It stays open long enough for the whole fleet to zip thru. If you need more see me by the starlight. yes it does but it asks just like a warp transit. The RTD does not say what size the warp point is as it was assumed up until this point that it could be used by total allies only. Now that it can be used by enemies I would be very curious to know what size the warp point is. This could be of great importance to an enemy trying to use the WG. If it is a size class 1 then the enemy better bring the big boys or it could be a very bad day for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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