Draco ground division cap

[The Fremen]

Nope.. I don’t like this one bit. 

As a colonizer I will have zero chance to defend all of them against an enemy that could eventually drop 2500 troops on each colony. My race is also a very competent ground combat race but with the 2500 division cap it would be next to impossible to defend against another race equally as proficient in ground combat

On the other side of the coin if you didn’t invest in ground combat tech or your race is weak in ground combat your only defense would be massive numbers of ground troops should it come to a fight on the ground.  That doesn’t seem very equitable either. 

 

[richardjohns]

As a colonizer, If you bring 2500 to the battle and we both have the same tech I will always lose.

[Hobo]

But could you just do more div on the planet

[The Fremen]

That depends on the racial traits. All things being equal. ( one of them will be by this change) the race with better tech and better racial combat traits will always win the fight.  Without this change the race with poor tech and poor racial combat traits might still stand a chance with massive numbers of troops

Those of you out there with brain in jar races watch out. You guys get hit the hardest. 

[The Fremen]

1 minute ago, Hobo said:

But could you just do more div on the planet

 To clarify It’s 2500 TOTAL divisions per position. 

[hobknob]

2500 total is just not reasonable.  Maybe a cap of 2500 per army, but down the road this will kill positions.   It makes the long game untenable.

[The Fremen]

1 hour ago, hobknob said:

2500 total is just not reasonable.  Maybe a cap of 2500 per army, but down the road this will kill positions.   It makes the long game untenable.

Agreed. I know this is the Draco galaxy but this is s bit too Draconian 😁

[RTGPete]

Here's a response I just made to  one player asking about it:

If your enemy could build endless divisions then he could overwhelm you anyway.  Limiting divisions hurts the attacker slightly because he can't just gain a free odds shift by bringing in twice as many divisions (or many free odds shifts with triple or 20 times or whatever).

In any event winning a ground battle is almost always decided by tech, as gaining tactical categories grants precious odds shifts, which are gold in ground combat.  Lifeform bonuses are good and certainly help, but if you achieve a massive odds advantage you're in great shape.  It's all about odds in the end.  The only thing that limitless divisions did was bloat the database (severely), causing all manner of problems with compressing and keeping the database in check.

It might feel like a big change, but it affects both sides equally and it now comes down to actually investing in ground combat tech without simultaneously causing serious database problems.  The force multiplier you're looking for is ground combat tech--odds shifts are everything.

I understand that it looks like a big change, but it really isn't.   Ground battles are won by gaining a massive odds advantage.  You can do that by building ridiculous numbers of divisions, or by winning tactical categories.  In almost every case even in Andromeda it's done by winning the tactical categories.  Players there just build gazillions of divisions because they have the production to do so.  When an attacker is dropping hundreds of thousands or even millions of divisions in a battle.....let's be honest here, it's getting a bit silly--and the bottom line is there are database issues that must be addressed in any event.   If you don't want to invest in ground combat tech but still expect to achieve 15:1, 30:1, 500:1 or whatever odds you would need a crazy number of divisions to achieve that.  Just win the tac categories and you're set.

For end game play (a difficult measure in a game like SN), should a defender plop down all 2500 of his divisions on his besieged home planet and invest as heavily as he can in ground combat tech then yes, he will be a tough nut to crack.  And he would have earned it.  Of course, he's just one planet at that point, no doubt blockaded by enemy ships that prevent him from doing much of anything else.

[RTGPete]

1 hour ago, hobknob said:

2500 total is just not reasonable.  Maybe a cap of 2500 per army, but down the road this will kill positions.   It makes the long game untenable.

Unfortunately this would make it impossible to take any world, since the defender could create many armies, each with 2500 divisions, and the attacker can only GATK with one.  There is no net effect on the long game because the attacker could simply have built endless divisions in any event.  Should the need arise (say, multiple empires stack divisions on one world to make it outstandingly difficult if not impossible to capture), then I can always code in a way for multiple attackers to hit a world with a GATK at the same time.  In any event limitless divisions causes vastly more problems than it solves, so it comes down to encouraging tech investment as the alternative.

[Hobo]

So Pete

Can you make more then one  div on a planet or is it 2500 it for the planet

[RTGPete]

As an aside, note that I hate artificial limits.  I'm with you on that in a big way.  I just need to make sure the database can handle the strain.

Now, I could re-code how divisions are stored.  It's a bit tricky but it can be done.  This would fix the database side of things.  I'm sure you guys would feel better which is always a good thing, but in reality it would just come back to the attacker bringing in more divisions.  You will still have a difficult time defending your colonies, and weaker races can still get overwhelmed.  That's true right now, even though Draco hasn't yet progressed to the point where such things happen very often.

If the div cap is just too annoying, I can certainly take a look at a re-code where division storage is concerned.  I'm okay with any solution.

[Hobo]

i was just wondering is all . since i just came back plaing draco just try to figured out a plan is all. I'm all for the tech side of it instead of lots of divs

[hobknob]

Speaking from my own experience this is not completely accurate. I know from my own experience tech is only an equalizer very early on when you don't have all the TAC areas covered and you have limited production and transport.  Give it a few years and tech alone will not save you from a beefier life form. 

Case in point - I had two positions, one that had researched ALL the ground techs, every single one, and one that was beefy and was just working on ground techs.  In a battle of 100 divisions  on each side and exactly the same I expected tech to win in support of Pete's assertions.  Wrong, it was wiped out easily. The tech guys had a production advantage and would only have been competitive if they could have fielded a force many times greater than the beefier guys.  With caps the better tech and better producing smart guys will never be able to prevail.

Limiting divisions means you can't afford to defend colonies, if you can't defend them then why build them?  If you can't colonize then an empire's might boils down the the luck of the draw on HW yields.  It also penalizes anybody who goes to the effort to actually capture another HW as now that one can't be defended either.  Heaven forbid you capture 2-3 and then have to leave them undefended.

On the flip side while you can attack with any number of positions and fleet sizes that show up at the same spot you only get the same limited army.  

Ground battles are indeed won by massive odds shifts and those are almost ALWAYS the result of more divisions, not tech.  Been there, Done that in Andromeda since the start.   You win the TAC war by building more of a particular type of division.  Tech is too slow to save you so you build until you get the tech and have the TAC advantage or at least parity. 

 

I am also very concerned that this cap includes units in stockpile.  I should be able to have replacements ready to go either in orbit or in a pop group.

 

Troops are still expensive, if you want to build more you should be able to but it will cost you in terms of other things you can't build.  Draco has already been pruned back sharply which will result in an empire never getting big enough to build the mass of divisions seen in Andromeda or have the ability to move them around easily.

This isn't football where each side is limited to the same number of players.  If you are bigger you should be able to deploy more.  If I want to turtle and just make a position that is just orbital defenses and divisions I should be able to.

I agree that this will not be that big of a deal in the short term.  In the long term, it is.

 

This also means that some current life form design choices will make those positions handicapped beyond recovery.

Lastly, the only real trade off for Imperial Reforms handicapping was the division limit.  Now its gone and everybody is just as handicapped without the benefit.

I would hope there would be future tech easing this limit.

 

 

[The Fremen]

Exactly. If your a standard human or heaven forbid a puny butterfly race all the tech in the universe isn’t going to save you from our vicious warlike bloodthirsty 15ft tall nearly unkillable ground troopers. Your only defense  would be never letting me get down to your planets surface.  

[hobknob]

Ships are equalized since all tech is "the same".  A 100 CM SRG is the same size for a giant race as it is for floating amoebas.  Troops are not.  A floating amoeba might need several 100 divisions just to equal one of the really buff ones, and that is before tech.  Something Tech will not equalize since that too is the same across every life form.