ShadowKitsune Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Thanks all for the explenation! De Nada! Being one of the Ancients (players from Turn 1), ISIS member and, generally speaking, nice guy (not Cao Cao the Nice Guy ) ... I try to help my fellow SN:ROTE players when I can. -SK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octus Imperium Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 That's just the iron in System. next system over has a 600 lumber, 585 Iron and 495 iron. I have tons of iron! Now we know how to find you! Mk IX superconductor plamsa powered electromagnets should 1) point right at you when turned on and 2) drag your ferrous behind to the magnet! You may with to move some non-ferrous assets out when we get to that tech.......as grey beards. (Apologies to anyone already sporting grey.) Octus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted December 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 My ideal turtle tech path looks slightly different. Oh well. To play devil's advocate (I too, believe in higher AP ships than 2 APs)----- Having high APs on your explorers is undoubtedly nice because you can explore huge systems in less turns......but be honest now...... 1) You are still using a ton of orders 2) Who cares if you have that system completely explored in one turn instead of ten? Even if you find all those juicy 'Mars' worlds, it'll still take tons of resources in terms of engines/CBs to colonize them in decent time. I use a pretty basic formula for making these decisions: Colonization Difficulty Rating = Tonnage of Colony Ship/Number of Turns to Warp to Colony Target + 1 The '+1' is for the extra turn it will take to issue a COLB order. The higher this number, the more feasible the effort. This is why my newer Colony Ship designs have tremendous amounts of CBs. (At this point I have the various 200-300 ships all merged into one giant colonizer fleet which I will consider refitting with NTWDs and Fusion engines) Thus, unless you are out of nearby Mars worlds for colonization, its almost useless in my book to find other 'Mars' worlds any 'faster'. On the flip side, you get the dirty work out of the way and might find neutrals/players (Which again poses the problem - so? How you gonna get to em?) I basically wanted to state the bottleneck problem that I currently face....I have hundreds of planets completely mapped out with several dozen 'ideal' worlds with very decent yields ready to go.....but I'm limited in my ability to colonize them due to: 1) distance and 2) lack of Colony Ships Hell, even if I had super fast colony ships....the other bottleneck problem arrives: CMs / Improved CMs (trust me - even those starting CMs put into less efficient SMs will run out soon enough) I know for certain of a couple of other players who will freely admit to these limitations with the super aggressive colonization strategy. However, once I am able to convert to Improved ICs/SMs, things will look pretty darned peachy I can't seem to make enough Improved CMs per turn to satisfy my overall needs, though. Overall theme? Fast exploration eventually leaves you with many options that you cannot choose simultaneously....something eventually has to give Bonus theme for us breeder races: CMs/Improved CMs are your bottleneck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokmok Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Hello The formulas for ship action points and amount of engines to add are... ((Current Mass of ship)* #AP´s)/((Engine Thrust rate) -(Engine Mass*#AP´s)) = Amount of engines to be added. So the Total mass of ship = (Mass before engines)+(#engines*Engine Mass) thnks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 The viability of colonization is entirely dependent on getting the right tech. That being 1. Nuclear Transwarp Drives, and 2. engines at tier 4 and beyond. Tier 4 because the 2000 pound thrust is the point where it's cheaper to build higher AP/fewer berthing ships than lower AP/more berthing ships. Until I get those techs either through SRP's (happily the case with both my empires) or conventional research, I will colonize my home system only, and perhaps 1 jump out *if* I find a very rich world. While waiting for the tech, it's a good idea to explore everything out to a least 2 jumps from the HW so that by the time you have the techs, you've found the worlds to colonize. I don't think in terms of turtling or not turtling. I think in terms of what is optimum and what isn't. - Woolfe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhaseDragon Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Ahhhhh, to turtle or not to turtle....that is the e-turtle question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowKitsune Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Ahhhhh, to turtle or not to turtle....that is the e-turtle question. Congrats on your new affiliation Ed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Actually I only use my High AP ships if they have NTWD. That way I can go to a system and do: MOVE, SURV, WARP, SS, SURV, WARP, MOVE, SURV, WARP, SS, SURV, WARP.. It clears 2 warp points and gives me an idea of the systems on the other side. I could MOVE and SURV 4 systems if needed. Since my ships are armed I can handle a fight (if the ennemy is on Zulu) and get an idea of where contact is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Xaar Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 MadMartin, I assume your race has Telepathy? MOVE, SURV, WARP, SS, MOVE, SURV (etc.) only works when you have an idea of the warp point IDs in the next system...unless you are in a section of space that has a *huge* number of one-way w.p.'s. The NTWD thing is still nice, but I use to them to come in behind my frontline explorer ships to "mop up" the system. Lord Xaar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted December 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 Suppose explorer starts in ALPHA system which has been SS: Class Warp Point Adjacent System =========== =========== B..........................BETA B..........................CHARLIE A..........................DELTA Here is what I think MMB meant which is pretty slick: 1) MOVE to Beta WP 2) SURV Beta WP 3) WARP to Beta 4) SS Beta 5) WARP to Alpha 6) MOVE to Charlie WP 7) SURV Charlie WP 8) WARP to Charlie 9) SS Charlie 10) WARP to Beta 11) MOVE to Delta WP 12) SURV Delta WP 13) WARP to Delta 14) SS Delta 14 AP shipto clear out 3 adjacent systems with NTWD would be quite a build....sounds like you have a 18 AP ship equipped with a NTWD? Another HUGE assumption.....you have JSS tech that can clear out D's and maybe E's? I would only build such a design if I had JSS IV tech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted December 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 :lol: Sorry for the double post I was bored and decided to share the math for designing that uber 18 AP ship MMB alludes to having. Here is my formula. I obviously use a spreadsheet. Step One: Calculate Engine Needs ======================= APs I Want = (Thrust Ouput * X) / (Tonnage of Ship without Engines + (Tonnage of Engine*X)) Solve for X and that tells you how many engines to build. Step Two: Determine New Tonnage ======================== (Tonnage of ship without engines) + (Tonnage of Engine * X) = Y Step Three: Fuel Tankage Calculation ======================== Calculate (0.4*Y) -- this is how many fuel tanks you need to surf a little under 25 Class E or lower warp points without stopping for fuel for THIS design. Call this value Z. Email/PM me to show you how I got 0.4 or want to adjust your fuel needs....it varies by what I want my ships to do. Trust me...its not 0.4 in every case. I use a multivariable formula that I will nto get into for the purposes of this post....its tricky and involves a few other steps. Step Four: Adjust for Extra Fuel Tankage =========================== APs I Want = (Thrust Ouput * W) / (Z + (Tonnage of Engine*W)) Solve for W and that tells you how many additional engines you need Step Five: Total you needs =================== W + X = total engines you need Z = fuel tankage you need Example: I want an 18 AP ship with a NTWD, 2 JSS IV's and enough fuel to warp at least a dozen times (A-E warp points) without having to refuel. Let us presume we have amazing engines....Mk III Fusion Engines with a thrust output of 4,000!!!! The base tonnage of the design is: 35,000 (25,000 for the NTWD and 10,000 for the 2 JSS) Plugging in the numbers for Step One we get: Step One ------------ 18 = (4000*X)/(35,000 + (100*X)) X represents number of engines to handle the base design without fuel tankage and comes out to be: 287 Step Two ------------- New tonnage is 35,000 + 287*100 = Y = 63,700 Step Three -------------- We need (0.4)*Y fuel tanks = (63,700)*(0.4) = Z = 25,480 Step Four -------------- We find out how many engines we need to accomodate for fuel tankage: 18 = (4000 * W) / (Z + (100*W)) or 18=(4000*W)/(25,480 + (100*W)) W = 208 Step Five ------------- We need 208 + 287 Engines = W + X = 495 Mk III Fusion Engines Lets check the math -- 25,000 tons for the NTWD 10,000 tons for the Mk IV JSS 25,480 tons for the Fuel Tankage 49,500 tons for the Engines Total tonnage = 109,980 Total Thrust Output = 495*4000 = 1,980,000 APs = (1,980,000 / 109,800) = 18 Estimated Costs (basic industries that we start with) RR: 25 Million.................. IC: 117k Note: This design has enough fuel to warp through 231 Class A warp points, 115 Class B warp points, 57 Class C warp woints, 29 Class D warp points or 14 Class E warp points. We need all that fuel...after all we have an 18 AP ship!!! Why waste precious orders on stopping for SKIMs or LC (fuel) orders? :lol: Heck, even with this design, we can only last 12 turns if we have easy Class A warp points the whole way.... Other Note: This design would require Advanced and Improved Goods. Yet another note: An empire could probably build 2-4 of these per turn depending on their industrial base. Should I bother to calculate the resource costs for more mortal yet uber engines like the Mk II Fusion Engine? Or have we all had enough math for one evening :lol: :lol: :lol: Ok, ok.....here it is If you are curious.....using Mk II Fusion Engines (something I suspect very few of us have in the first place at this stage), you would need the following for an 18 AP design.... 2 JSS 1 NTWD 140,000 Fuel Tankage 15,750 Mk II Fusion Engines Warp figures before it needs fuel: 80 A's, 40 B's, 20 C's, 10 D's and 5 E's (see what I mean about that 0.4 figure?) We probably need more fuel tanks and I need to adjust that .4 for our Z value to .8...otherwise the design has to refuel once every other turn :/ I'd add at least 140k more fuel tanks and 12,600 engines.... Estimated Costs: 316 Million RR.................. 1.45 Million IC So - at this point in time, I have an 18 AP ship with decent fuel tankage sitting right on top of a bridge I can sell you in Manhattan :lol: :lol: :lol: If anyone else is lucky enough to actually have either of these designs, my hats off to you......send pictures Bottom Line: You have to have very good engine tech and sacrifice a lot of resources and orders for that super AP ship that can scan your entire neighborhood in one turn........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowKitsune Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 Dang! That's a lot of Resources for a single purpose ship. All it can do is Survey work and even then it needs some kind of Refueler Ship or Colony because it has no Fuel Shuttles for independent operation. I think I'll stick with my under 10 AP ships for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 Eternus - Mistake on your part. It would be Move to Beta SURV Beta WARP SURV (return from Beta system) SS WARP (back to Alpha) MOVE to CHarlie SURV WARP SURV (back to Alpha) SS WARP I use 8 AP ships (I did post my Leprauchaun design before) with use 1 MK III JSS and have MK II Fusions. They are also armed. I think I have 445 MK II Fusions. The only issue is with One Ways...Got one this turn..Info below (kind of funny). 1st time in four turns. ------- MOVE: 603, xxxxxx, 10008 Fleet 603 #603 moves to xxxxxx, Warp Point 10008. ================================================================================ ========================================= -----SURV (Warp Survey)----- SURV: 603 Fleet 603 #603 begins a detailed Warp Survey of Warp Point 10008 in the xxxxxx system Sensor crews report that Warp Point 10008 is a Class D Warp Point with the ability to handle 7 ships jumping at the same instant under combat conditions The destination of this Warp Point lies in the Pirithoos star system ================================================================================ ========================================= -----WARP (Warp Movement)----- WARP: 603 990 Fuel is expended during the transition through this Class D Warp Point Fleet 603 #603 enters the Warp Point it is stationed at and jumps to the Pirithoos star system, appearing at a new Warp Point: # 45305. All non-Transwarp ships in Fleet 603 #603 (if any) are reduced to zero Action Points following their successful Warp movement. ================================================================================ ========================================= -----SS (System Scan)----- SS: 603 Fleet 603 #603 conducts a detailed System Scan of the Pirithoos star system ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----PIRITHOOS [ M (Red) 3 VI ] [single Star]----- Orbit Type Orb Distance (AU's) Diameter (km) Atmosphere ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Terrestrial 0.4 54264 Ammonia 2 Terrestrial 0.6 19393 Ammonia 3 Frozen Rockball 0.8 72200 Vacuum 4 Frozen Rockball 1.2 19926 Methane 5 Frozen Terrestrial 2 21125 Ammonia 6 Asteroid Field 3.6 1 Vacuum 7 Frozen Rockball 6.8 39376 Vacuum 8 Frozen Terrestrial 13.2 61740 Nitrogen 9 Gas Giant 26 --- --- 9a Moon 23579 Hydrogen 9b Moon 15560 Methane 10 Gas Giant 51.6 --- --- 10a Moon 14884 Nitrogen 10b Moon 2293 Chlorine Warp Point ID Orbital Distance (AU's) Warp Point Class 45305 418.4 D Imperial Astronomers catalog the Pirithoos system and add its details to the official Imperial records ================================================================================ ========================================= -----SURV (Warp Survey)----- SURV: 603 Fleet 603 #603 begins a detailed Warp Survey of Warp Point 45305 in the Pirithoos system Sensor crews report that Warp Point 45305 is a Class D Warp Point with the ability to handle 14 ships jumping at the same instant under combat conditions The destination of this Warp Point lies in the Vali star system ================================================================================ ========================================= -----WARP (Warp Movement)----- WARP: 603 990 Fuel is expended during the transition through this Class D Warp Point Fleet 603 #603 enters the Warp Point it is stationed at and jumps to the Vali star system, appearing at a new Warp Point: # 4898. All non-Transwarp ships in Fleet 603 #603 (if any) are reduced to zero Action Points following their successful Warp movement. ================================================================================ ========================================= -----MOVE (Move To Warp Point)----- MOVE: 603, Whittney, 3769 ** Fleet # 603 is not located in the Whittney star system, canceling this movement order ================================================================================ ========================================= -----SURV (Warp Survey)----- SURV: 603 Fleet 603 #603 begins a detailed Warp Survey of Warp Point 4898 in the Vali system Sensor crews report that Warp Point 4898 is a Class D Warp Point with the ability to handle 17 ships jumping at the same instant under combat conditions The destination of this Warp Point lies in the Pirithoos star system ================================================================================ ========================================= -----WARP (Warp Movement)----- WARP: 603 990 Fuel is expended during the transition through this Class D Warp Point Fleet 603 #603 enters the Warp Point it is stationed at and jumps to the Pirithoos star system, appearing at a new Warp Point: # 45305. All non-Transwarp ships in Fleet 603 #603 (if any) are reduced to zero Action Points following their successful Warp movement. ================================================================================ ========================================= -----SS (System Scan)----- SS: 603 Fleet 603 #603 conducts a detailed System Scan of the Pirithoos star system ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----PIRITHOOS [ M (Red) 3 VI ] [single Star]----- Orbit Type Orb Distance (AU's) Diameter (km) Atmosphere ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Terrestrial 0.4 54264 Ammonia 2 Terrestrial 0.6 19393 Ammonia 3 Frozen Rockball 0.8 72200 Vacuum 4 Frozen Rockball 1.2 19926 Methane 5 Frozen Terrestrial 2 21125 Ammonia 6 Asteroid Field 3.6 1 Vacuum 7 Frozen Rockball 6.8 39376 Vacuum 8 Frozen Terrestrial 13.2 61740 Nitrogen 9 Gas Giant 26 --- --- 9a Moon 23579 Hydrogen 9b Moon 15560 Methane 10 Gas Giant 51.6 --- --- 10a Moon 14884 Nitrogen 10b Moon 2293 Chlorine Warp Point ID Orbital Distance (AU's) Warp Point Class 45305 418.4 D Imperial Astronomers note that the Pirithoos star system has already been surveyed and added to the Imperial Astronomical database, so they do not bother adding it again ================================================================================ ========================================= -----SURV (Warp Survey)----- SURV: 603 Fleet 603 #603 begins a detailed Warp Survey of Warp Point 45305 in the Pirithoos system Sensor crews report that Warp Point 45305 is a Class D Warp Point with the ability to handle 14 ships jumping at the same instant under combat conditions The destination of this Warp Point lies in the Vali star system ================================================================================ ========================================= -----WARP (Warp Movement)----- WARP: 603 990 Fuel is expended during the transition through this Class D Warp Point Fleet 603 #603 enters the Warp Point it is stationed at and jumps to the Vali star system, appearing at a new Warp Point: # 4898. All non-Transwarp ships in Fleet 603 #603 (if any) are reduced to zero Action Points following their successful Warp movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 Also I have 10 fuel shuttles and will go to the GAS GIANT and SKIM 4-6 times this turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted December 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 Pretty slick! Dave is right about engine tech. With uber ship tech, the 18 AP ships will be feasible.... Imagine having a warfleet with NTWDs and 18 APs....can get to the front quickly! Of course, the maneuverability will suffer with all that tonnage. I like the fact that high AP/NTWD ships are so hard to build. However, its still scary to think that a warship CURRENTLY has the potential to warp 3-4 systems at a time to reach my homeworld....scary and exciting at the same time MMB - the 8 AP design sounds pretty feasible. With all the positives of adopting the turtle strategy as far as efficient allocation of orders/resources....if someone like you is in the neighborhood and aggressively surveying all the warp points toward my homeworld, I have problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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