The mighty turtle strategy

[woolfe99]

I don't how thread relevant this is, but I have noticed something happening with empires who have set up recently.

 

A friend started up an empire 2 turns ago. He is a poor colonizer, with only Long Life Cycle (+1CB). In his home system is a ridiculously rich world (3600 total mining potential) that is "ideal." The odds of getting an ideal for any race with +1Cb are pretty slim to begin with. Couple that with the extreme richness of the world and it being in his home system. I had written it off as a coincidence, then I started a new empire myself and just got my first turn back yesterday.

 

What do you know? A ridiculously rich world in the home system (resource totals withing 3% of the world my friend found) and it is also an ideal.

 

If you start with a world like that in your home system, it will take long enough to colonize it that you can pretty much put a low priority on exploration unless you really want to link up with someone.

 

Clearly Pete has decided to do something to shift the production imbalance between newer and older empires.

 

- woolfe

[Locklyn]

Well it would be one way to attract newer players especially if the universe is smaller than we think. Pete denied planning to do anything like this when he gave the ESP resource tech to new players as well as consolidated pop groups but I think we'll see more of this in the future to attract newer players.

 

/Locklyn

[ShadowKitsune]

Two instances is hardly an overwhelming trend. If it is true, I could be bitter about it all and start ranting about paytesting again, but I won't. However I will make one plug ...

 

Faster Research Please!

 

Dear Santa,

 

Could you please leave a note for Pete to double the output of Research Centers for eveyone.

 

Thanks,

 

SK

 

:lol:

[RTGPete]

Faster Research Please!

 

Dear Santa,

 

Could you please leave a note for Pete to double the output of Research Centers for eveyone.

 

Thanks,

 

SK 

 

:lol:

I set up a test race right at the start, and got a planet with the same atmosphere. The temperature was off but my colonization bonus countered that and made the world ideal. Does this count as a core home system with a great setup? Another test empire had nothing good in its home system but a very nice world one out. Not sure how people want to count that one. A third test race had a spectacular world in its home system. I've also seen some home systems with really good asteroid fields in-system or one away - hard to colonize but with fantastic yields. Depending on how those kinds of setups are counted, the results can be viewed in a variety of ways. For a pure turtle strategy, it's a big deal. For others, colonization isn't as important anyway.

 

Double research output? Ack! That would essentially invalidate all 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation items from the game. They'd be trivial to research, and I can't imagine anybody actually building them when a superior version would be developed so rapidly. Are you sure you really want faster research? All that does it speed you down the road to obsolete items.... Hard research benefits those who work up a tree and don't want others following them, encouraging specialization. Easy research just gives everything to everybody.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

 

Research Speed is just fine!

 

It gives time to plan and time to implement.

 

It also means that getting that 'one' tech is really meaningful. And if you haven't got 'it' then you might be able to trade for it.

 

So, it doesn't seem to be broke and therefore probably doesn't need fixing.

 

Want faster tech, then save SRP. Our race didn't and that's what's slowing it down. I really think our GMs planned for the long term in more ways than one!!!! :lol:

 

Chief Existentialist to Ur-Lord Tedric

 

And a very Happy Christmas to All. And if the concept makes you uncomfortable, then the Season's Greetings anyway.......Mx

[octagon999]

I can't imagine anybody actually building them when a superior version would be developed so rapidly. Are you sure you really want faster research?

That's what happened in SNII. You would research stuff and before you could use it hardly, the dang thing would be obsolete. It got to where I wouldn't build hardly anything for awhile, just because I was tired of having it become obsolete so fast.

 

I actually like the research pace.

 

If there is any place where the research seems out of balance it is in the horizon vs. item vs. ground tech costs. While you can specialize in items, you have to have the horizons and ground tech. So those are especially painful it seems to me.

[woolfe99]

Faster Research Please!

 

Dear Santa,

 

Could you please leave a note for Pete to double the output of Research Centers for eveyone.

 

Thanks,

 

SK 

 

:lol:

I set up a test race right at the start, and got a planet with the same atmosphere. The temperature was off but my colonization bonus countered that and made the world ideal. Does this count as a core home system with a great setup? Another test empire had nothing good in its home system but a very nice world one out. Not sure how people want to count that one. A third test race had a spectacular world in its home system. I've also seen some home systems with really good asteroid fields in-system or one away - hard to colonize but with fantastic yields. Depending on how those kinds of setups are counted, the results can be viewed in a variety of ways. For a pure turtle strategy, it's a big deal. For others, colonization isn't as important anyway.

 

Double research output? Ack! That would essentially invalidate all 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation items from the game. They'd be trivial to research, and I can't imagine anybody actually building them when a superior version would be developed so rapidly. Are you sure you really want faster research? All that does it speed you down the road to obsolete items.... Hard research benefits those who work up a tree and don't want others following them, encouraging specialization. Easy research just gives everything to everybody.

Just to be clear about this, you're saying that you are not manually adjusting to provide better colony worlds for recent setups? I ask, because I've seen 2 setups over the past couple turns where there were colony worlds with ideal conditions that have resources way beyond any world that my original race has found. It could certainly be random statistical variation, but you can see why I am pondering an alternative theory...

[RTGPete]

Statistical variations from one system to another are to be expected. One of my test empires found a world with just over 800 Iron...if only they were the colonizers

 

Fortunately, colonization is not critical to success in any event. It helps, but there is a hefty investment required. Some home systems might appear to be "better" than others, but it's outweighed in a big way by the nature of the other players around you.

 

Horizon techs are expensive - those and the Improved and Advanced components. I've always liked the idea of dropping 1 Research Center into each of the various Improved components right from the start. It's very efficient, and by the time I can build anything that needs Improved things, they're done. Same thing for some horizon techs.

[Clan Elder 'Keen]

Some home systems might appear to be "better" than others, but it's outweighed in a big way by the nature of the other players around you.

I'm not quite following.

[RTGPete]

Some home systems might appear to be "better" than others, but it's outweighed in a big way by the nature of the other players around you.

I'm not quite following.

Oh - I just mean that even if you produced 1 million extra Iron (over what a neighbor produces on his colony) from a great colony world in your home system, that's nice but is outweighed by the attitudes and strategies of the other players around you. Any bonus is good, but even a million extra Iron is not going to tip the scales of success all that much. Arriving on the spot with superior force will likely be much more shocking than somebody's emailed spreadsheet showing their superior Iron production (especially if you arrive over their probably-undefended colony world)

[Tokmok]

 

 

Yes but a very high yeild world is much cheaper and easier to colonize because of the yield pr mine is much greater.

 

for instance you only need 3000 colonists to get 75% of max prod from a 1200 yield iron world.

 

So you get 2.4 mill iron for 3000 colonist on a 1200 yield iron world

 

it takes a much greater number of colonist and therefore longer to colonize worlds where the iron yield is say 500-700.

 

2.4 mill iron extra ca equals a total production increase of 25%.

 

very good for only 3000 colonists and it doesn´t take that long to do

 

I would say that the yields in the home system makes a very big difference

 

I mean is the game really set-up so that it is realistic from the beginning to forget about colonization and instead build a warfleet and troop transports and start a major conquest campaign???

 

 

thanks Tokmok

[woolfe99]

Some home systems might appear to be "better" than others, but it's outweighed in a big way by the nature of the other players around you.

I'm not quite following.

Oh - I just mean that even if you produced 1 million extra Iron (over what a neighbor produces on his colony) from a great colony world in your home system, that's nice but is outweighed by the attitudes and strategies of the other players around you. Any bonus is good, but even a million extra Iron is not going to tip the scales of success all that much. Arriving on the spot with superior force will likely be much more shocking than somebody's emailed spreadsheet showing their superior Iron production (especially if you arrive over their probably-undefended colony world)

I agree with you to some extent. Clearly you could have some nice production bonuses early on and a neighbor might not colonize and instead put all his resources into starship components then wipe you out. However, linking up takes a while in this game, certainly longer than it takes to set up and reap the benefits of a single good colony world in your home system.

 

Consider the numbers. My homeworld (and pretty much everyone elses as homeworld yields are controlled and not entirely random), produces about 2,000,000 level 1 resources from mining, in addition to its stripmining output. Those 2,000,000 level 1 resources represent about 18% additional raw resource equivalent production over my raw resource output (much more actually, when you consider the savings of industrial capacity because they are already "converted" to level 1).

 

These colony worlds that were found by my friend and me will produce about double what the homeworld produces. All in all, between the raw resources equivalent value of what's produced and the savings of industrial capacity, it's at least a 35% increase in total empire economic output, probably more.

 

Sure, there's an investment. Berthings are expensive, but they are amortized as you re-use them to set up more colonies. Construction materials are "free" at the beginning because you start with about 7,000,000 and they can't really be used for anything else that competes with mining.

 

Someone will have to get to me within the first 20 turns to really negate this advantage. Do I think it's a major, crushing advantage? Not at all. And I'm not complaining. I am just curious if it's a random event or not...

 

- woolfe

[RTGPete]

Sure, finding a perfect colony world with a 1200 yield in Iron would make a difference. As it happens, such perfectly ideal colony worlds seem to be incredibly rare (unless you're a whole lot luckier than I've been with my test empires).

 

Tossing out the extreme cases, the more common differences come from reasonably colonizable worlds (not necessarily perfect ones) with 700 or even an impressive 800 or 900 in Iron, Crystals or some other useful resource. Those certainly help, but it's not a massive make-or-break-your-empire kind of thing. Has anybody been blasted back into the stone age yet by a neighbor who happened to find a world somewhere that on the margin had a superior Crystal yield?

 

In any event, if an Emperor considers resource yields to be the main focus of his reign, perhaps he should order research down certain related tech trees to find an answer. A pure turtle strategy would certainly be fitting in this case.

[Krelnett_of_Kraan]

Consider the numbers. My homeworld (and pretty much everyone elses as homeworld yields are controlled and not entirely random), produces about 2,000,000 level 1 resources from mining, in addition to its stripmining output. Those 2,000,000 level 1 resources represent about 18% additional raw resource equivalent production over my raw resource output (much more actually, when you consider the savings of industrial capacity because they are already "converted" to level 1).

Wow, 2M??? The empire I started at the beginning of the game produces only 1.1M basic resources per turn. Comparing that to my friend's homeworld (which made about 1.6M, if I remember right) and all the initial bugs are what made me quit playing for over a year. My new empire produces about 1.8M basics per turn. Better, but still well short of your "average" 2M per turn.

[LenLorek]

2,000,000 level 1 resources is the average mining capacity for a Home World?

 

If so, then my Home World is seriously below average, at about 1,300,000 level 1 resources, including about 25,000 Ghuran Demonblood that I have yet to find a use for.

 

My first colony has a mining capacity of about 1,000,000 level 1 resources (including about 6,000 of the ubiquitous Ghuran Demonblood). Luckily, this is in my Home System and is "ideal" for my Empire's race to colonise ... so I guess this makes up for it.

 

I started playing SNROTE from the very beginning, in September 2002. Does this confirm woolfe99's suspicions about later starters having better Home Worlds? Or are we being paranoid?

 

Len Lorek

"The Bush Administration"