Outlaw Empire

[Gary Carpenter]

I am looking at the story of the Republic of scanners, attacking and destroying 10 ships of an empire they were not at war with, and wondering, who in the GS, will step forward and begin proceedings to declare the above mentioned empire an outlaw empire and remove them from the Senate?

[EternusIV]

What makes you so certain it was 'piracy' rather than the protection of sovereign space?

 

Nothing in the Galactic Charter, nor its bylaws prohibits justified warfare.

 

Were you expecting Senator-President Kasame M'Bete to simply roll over in every instance of contact?

[Gary Carpenter]

HANNIBAL-LOGION Anti-Piracy Bill

GS BILL 061704-2-04

 

The Galactic Senate declares piracy as a strictly illegal activity. No empire is allowed to steal or capture property belonging to another empire, unless under a declared state of war. Piracy is not in keeping with the Senate’s stated goals. Any empire found by the Galactic Senate to be engaging in piracy, will be branded as an outlaw empire. All empires, both in and out of the Galactic Senate are free to engage, indeed encouraged to engage, an outlaw empire wherever it is found to exist.

 

Piracy is defined as the act of intentionally attacking, raiding, blockading, bombarding, extorting, or plundering of any thing of value, actively run by a real player, without provocation or legitimate justification. Piracy shall not be deemed to include the capturing of legitimate prize during times of just war, nor shall it include the confiscation of contraband or tariffs by customs and revenue authorities provided the collection of same is openly and conspicuously announced beforehand and the territorial scope of such collection is specifically and intelligably defined.

 

The liberation of contraband from a known pirate shall not itself be deemed piracy. Whenever possible, stolen property should be returned to its former owners. The liberator of stolen goods may keep 30% of any liberated goods as a salvage fee.

 

Vote Record

 

YEA: 82, 3343, 2084, 2996, 54, 1006, 4579, 2372, 1773, 4933, 760, 1728, 2159

NAY: 3857, 2516, 4851

ABSTAIN: 2296

DEFAULT ABSTAIN: 1351, 500, 1290, 3062

 

The United Republic of Scanners is in violation of the anti piracy bill. As stated in the story, they attacked the Phoenix empire, without warning, in an area the scanners had asked the Phoenix empire to stay. the Scanners would have a much better case, if they left the attack fleet on the other side of the warp point and blew up the ships that went further into his empire. By telling the Phoenix empire that it was ok to stay in the system, just to not go any further into Scanner territory, the attacked empire had by the Scanners own admiission been granted the right to be in the system where they were attacked.

 

Am I to assume, the laws of the GS were ment to apply only to wrong thinking people, IE those that are not in the Senate?

 

Could someone explain to me why the GS passed this anti piracy law, if they do not intend to in any way enforce the law?

[Gary Carpenter]

BTW the Scanners voted for the anti piracy bill. I hope their defense is not that they did not read it!!!!

[ali-t-akua]

There is just one problem Gill. Unless you are the Phoenix Empire, how do you know this is an act of piracy? After all the only evidence that an empire attacked anyone in an unprovoked fashion is a story posted on this board. A story that could leave out salient details in order to make the telling better.

 

Another point is the time when this took place is also in question. Did it occur before or after the bill was passed? I don't think it would be fair to condemn the Senator if there was an unprovoked attack prior to this bill being passed. It would not be fair.

 

I agree that the law of the Senate needs to be enforced but before I condemn anyone I would want more proof that an infraction of the Senate's rules had taken place from both parties and that it was done maliciously and not just done in self defense.

[Damiano]

Can you define whether a collection of Pathfinders and light auxiliaries is actually of value? and flooding a border with a collection of ships capable of scanning many warp points IS an act of aggression especially if you had previously agreed to this being a border.

[Gary Carpenter]

IC

 

Guess I expected too much.

[AKO]

Gary,

The anti-piracy clearly states "without provocation".

We agreed that Kliuchene was URS space and we also agreed that the Phoenix empire would not start scanning and surveying about. We also agreed that only one (1) ship would come into the system carrying a diplomat.

 

Seeing 9 new ships coming in, all clearly being scouting and surveying ships, we consider that a provocation, and I am sure almost anyone would, after the agreements made above.

 

Also, there was no communication (email) whatsoever from the Phoenix empire, so I think this was a legitimate action. I am definitely willing to defend my actions to the GS if they think this was a violation of the anti-piracy bill.

 

Kind regards,

[ali-t-akua]

Guess I expected too much.

 

If you mean that you expected Senate would enforce its laws without examining the facts, yes you did. We would be fools (and a lot smaller) to not examine the facts prior to taking action, especially on the word of a third party who was not part of the event.

 

Can you define whether a collection of Pathfinders and light auxiliaries is actually of value? and flooding a border with a collection of ships capable of scanning many warp points IS an act of aggression especially if you had previously agreed to this being a border.

 

I dont mean to be Clintonian but if by border you mean a system I claim (within three jumps of my HW) then I would consider this a provocation especially after AKO points out that there was an agreement to only have one more ship show up and nine did at the same time that the Empire stopped communicating. It would greatly worry me. However, like I said, the Phoenix Empire is welcome to come here and present their side fo the story. While the Senator in question deserves the benefit of the doubt, I believe that my fellow Senators and I would hear the Phoenix side fo the story.

[EternusIV]

If I find time before this Monday, I can draft up a little bylaw establishing some sort of protocol for investigating such things....

 

But I don't see any evidence of 'piracy' going on here in the least - especially in light of AKOs claims that you came in with more ships than agreed upon.

 

The Galactic Senate is not so united as to meddle into the precise affairs of every Senator.

 

Other Senators are ecouraged to respond on this matter as it raises the issue of enforcement and determination of a potential violation.

 

However, I will propose a presumption of innocence for now.

 

C'mon, Gary.....are you asking the Galactic Senate to "beat AKO up" for you? I thought you PA guys could handle your own affairs Slam the GS in one breath, ask for its protections in the next?

 

Do you firmly believe that AKO committed an act of piracy? Perhaps you are merely trying to stir things up? :lol:

 

If I am to believe him, it sounds like you had better respect your agreements with Senator-President Kasame M'Bete a little more fervently

 

And I'm sure your 'spin' on the situation won't settle with him too easily, either

 

With all of that said - if AKO was indeed acting like a pirate (I highly doubt it) - the Senate has to respond.

 

Maybe other Senators can help me draft a bill establishing a 'hearing' process or some such and we can try our first case (I know, 'leave it to lawyers' as Looker suggested once :lol: )

[HumVie]

Hi Eternus IV,

 

Just reading the thread and other GS threads, wouldn't this be the kind of thing that the GS should discuss and/or set up a Fact Finding Commision on?

 

You could ask for copies of the section of the turns pertaining to the battle, ROE settings, fleet location, etc. Post the info and then discuss/resolve the problem in open discussion.

 

Actually I think Gary has raised a valid point(s) (which I will paraphrase for him), "How does the Galactic Senate handle incidents between members/players? How does it obtain the necessary information to resolve an incident? What is the leadership structure that helps guide the process (is it informal/formal, implied/implicit, etc.). How quickly does the GS handle such matters when they are identified."

 

Reading Gary's original post, I do not see where he is asking for protection. I do see where he is pointing out a potential problem with a GS rule as it is currently worded and the kind of action the current wording implies. I expect that this is something that the GS needs to gather its members together to discuss and revise or act upon as currently worded. Its simply a matter the GS should put on its agenda for resolution. That Gary brought it up first is more of an indication that Gary has read GS resolutions, is aware of their meanings and may be more on the bounce in bringing the matter to the attention of the GS than its members are. You should thank him for his help and proceed with what you need to do (as I have pointed out you can change the resolution, investigate, pass a strongly worded statement, banish, absolve or any combination of these). Its up the GS in session to decide.

 

Good Cheer,

Rick McFarland

Proud Member Phoenix Arisen

[T'Aleen Empire]

I for one would like to hear from the other side...Phoenix Empire. All the rest of you 3rd party onlookers really can't answer anything and anything you hear is only 2nd hand data. So you can all chew on what-ever, but until Phoenix Empire speaks up, then not much can be said.

 

Seems we will have to wait and see...plain and simple :lol:

[The Boo Consulate]

Gary,

The anti-piracy clearly states "without provocation".

We agreed that Kliuchene was URS space and we also agreed that the Phoenix empire would not start scanning and surveying about. We also agreed that only one (1) ship would come into the system carrying a diplomat.

 

Seeing 9 new ships coming in, all clearly being scouting and surveying ships, we consider that a provocation, and I am sure almost anyone would, after the agreements made above.

 

Also, there was no communication (email) whatsoever from the Phoenix empire, so I think this was a legitimate action. I am definitely willing to defend my actions to the GS if they think this was a violation of the anti-piracy bill.

 

Kind regards,

The Boo Consulate is satisfied by the explaination of our friends the Scanners. These beings have proven themselves trustworthy and civilized in the past and absent some explicit and tangible evidence to the contrary, we feel no need to doubt the events as recounted by Senator-President M'Bete.

 

Should representatives of the Phoenix Empire or Phoenix Arisen produce actual evidence of Piracy we would be willing to re-examine this issue honestly and objectively. As it stands, however, it seems the Phoenix Empire is in breach of an agreement on frontiers. While Mister Bates does know the law on Piracy he has failed to read the law in pari materia with the other laws of the GS. GS 2:06 for instance clearly states that all members are sovereign. The Charter recognizes that Senate members are sovereign. These imply the right to self defense in the face of an armada. Furthermore, there is no evidence that the Scanners are engaged in the systematic raiding of commerce or colonies. The engagement appears to have been punitive in nature and therefore a legitimate act of state.

 

Honored One, Senator Perota

Boo Consultatum

[looker]

C'mon, Gary.....are you asking the Galactic Senate to "beat AKO up" for you?  I thought you PA guys could handle your own affairs   Slam the GS in one breath, ask for its protections in the next? 

 

Do you firmly believe that AKO committed an act of piracy?  Perhaps you are merely trying to stir things up?  :lol:

 

(I know, 'leave it to lawyers' as Looker suggested once  :lol: )

Did GC misquote the word of Gawd ?

 

No one is required to attack a pirate (especially if they even think it might be MMB the Mega-Mean-Buckaneer).

 

Here you have a famous fairy tale teller bragging that those little puppie and kittie ships were threating his empire. So he has justification for killing them all.

 

Red necked Admiral:

....Hot Damn Senator, that sneaky little Yorkie hiested his leg like he was fixin to relieve hisself on the warp point so I kilt 'em all.

Respectable, unbiased Senator:

Hell yes boy, ya ottah kiltem twice, mebbie 3 times if they was the same colluh as that burlingame pirate.

 

Where is the reasonable doubt?

Where is due process?

Where is common sense?

Where is the smoking gun?

 

OK, at least we have a smoking gun, trouble is the one with the gun seems to be the victim, not the killer. RULE I (A senator can't be wrong. ) Rule II (If a senator is wrong refer to rule I which supercedes rule II.)

 

Has any one besides me had two one ways leave the same system(A.) and both end in the same system(B.) ?

 

There are questions that need answered:

Why the extra ships ?

Why no explanation of the extra ships?

Why no declaration of war?

Why not place the warships at the other warp points and set to kill on contact?

 

The main question should be why the killing, not how many golden do-dads to we hang on the chest of this cold blooded killer?

 

I met a fellow that one-wayed into my core area and had a friendly chat with him. He gave me a list of systems near his departure system and I surveyed one of those a couple turns later and I showed him the way home. I got a guy out there who now conciders me a friend, not a notch on my gun. Oh, by the way the guy had PHOENIX in his empire name, but was a complete stranger to me personally and other than seeing his name on this board I did not know him.

 

I sort of conclude that a lot of you guys have never spent a Saturday afternoon watching John Wayne on the silver screen. You're so fixed on the man who shot Liberty Valence, that you sort of forget he's gonna be dead a long time.

[Gary Carpenter]

C'mon, Gary.....are you asking the Galactic Senate to "beat AKO up" for you?  I thought you PA guys could handle your own affairs   Slam the GS in one breath, ask for its protections in the next? 

 

Do you firmly believe that AKO committed an act of piracy?  Perhaps you are merely trying to stir things up?  :lol:

I am NOT the Phoenix empire. I am NOT speaking for the PA or the Phoenix empire. I just read the story, written by AKO, and think he is a pirate, according to the GS definition.

 

I am making sure no one in the GS blames him, as Older messages suggest, blowing up people is a bad thing. I am making sure the precident is set. We will see what happens when a non GS member blows up ships that are considered to be dangerous scouts.

 

I got the response I wanted, Thank You.