Outlaw Empire

[Arnold]

Phoenix Empire has no problem surfing the boards. In fact, he is logged in right now 2:33 Mountain Time:

 

Clan Elder 'Keen, GsssShsst, 1st Belisarius

 

The Universe can't wait to hear his side of the story, but he will probably go hide under a rock.

 

=Arnold=

[ali-t-akua]

AKO, I would not get too distracted by the huffing and puffing of the Phoenix Alliance. They apparently have some interest in the matter. And after getting caught by your prudently placed safeguards, now there is an attempt to sow confusion on the political front and to make you look the aggressor.

 

There is huffing and puffing by those who woul like to see the Senate fail. I dont necessarily see the Phoenix Alliance as part of that group. Gill Bates has identified an issue that the Senate needs to address. You may not like his tack but the issue is still there. There are some valid concerns that the Queen Mother of the Colony has pointed out and there is the fact that there is no process to investigate claims. The last one is being addressed by the Senate.

 

As a Senator I want to see the law applied here fairly and even handedly so while AKO is not "off the hook" I accept the statements he has made as a rational response to the situation he faced and will not condemn him until a different set of facts present themselves. One way those facts could possibly change is for the Phoneix Empire to come forth and tell their story. If the number of ships sent was through a misunderstanding I am sure you and AKO can work things out. As a member of the Senate peace is my primary interest and I am open to the other side of the story.

[PhaseDragon]

As a member of both the Phoenix Alliance and the Galactic Senate I find it hard to take "sides". I do believe, however, that scanning warp points is not an act of agression in and of itself. It "may" indicate that there "may" be future agression but the act itself is not agressive.

 

That being said I reiterate my original objection to the probable (and apparent) failure of enforcing an anti-piracy bill....that of defining the piracy act. It is obvious that not everyone can agree on what is piracy and what is not even after reading and re-reading the rules. I hate to say I told you so but....

 

What action the senate takes in this matter is probably not going to matter much at this point anyway since those same warp points which we aren't allowed to scan will prevent senate members from lending aid when needed. Seems like the worst kind of Catch-22. By the time aid does come (after scanning the warp points as required) the incident will already be resolved.

 

The argument is not really about piracy at all in my opinion. It is actually the venting of frustrations of those players that feel slighted in some way by the Phoenix Alliance or by the Senate. I really can't recall anything that has actually been "done" to anyone by either group other that lots of words. Sticks and stones people....

[Kurassier]

I would agree that this incident has nothing to do with 'piracy' but has to do with an alleged violation of an agreement between two empires. At least as far as I can tell at this point.

 

 

AS for the Galactic Senate, reality clearly show that at this point in the game, enforcement by way of military action is not a feasible option. We don't know where we all are.

I also did not join the Galactic Senate for reasons of Military actions. Military Actions, are in my opinion, a matter for individual empires and alliances.

That being said, I am more likely to lend military assistance to a Galatic Senator who requests aid, then a non Senator. Assuming of course I have a way to assist the good Senator.

I would also note that this will change as the game goes on and we run into more empires.

[looker]

I would agree that this incident has nothing to do with 'piracy' but has to do with an alleged violation of an agreement between two empires. At least as far as I can tell at this point.

 

 

AS for the Galactic Senate, reality clearly show that at this point in the game, enforcement by way of military action is not a feasible option. We don't know where we all are.

I also did not join the Galactic Senate for reasons of Military actions. Military Actions, are in my opinion, a matter for individual empires and alliances.

That being said, I am more likely to lend military assistance to a Galatic Senator who requests aid, then a non Senator. Assuming of course I have a way to assist the good Senator.

I would also note that this will change as the game goes on and we run into more empires.

Respectfully asked:

 

Does that indicate a different response to the "bad" Senator?

 

Does the existance of a good Senator indicate/preclude existence a bad one.

[ali-t-akua]

I do believe, however, that scanning warp points is not an act of agression in and of itself. It "may" indicate that there "may" be future agression but the act itself is not agressive.

 

Phase Dragon, I do not agree with this statement. Part of defending an empire requires that we maintain as much space as possible. Scanning warp points makes the assault easier. Anyone who shows up at my borders will get only one warning.

 

That being said I reiterate my original objection to the probable (and apparent) failure of enforcing an anti-piracy bill....that of defining the piracy act. It is obvious that not everyone can agree on what is piracy and what is not even after reading and re-reading the rules.

 

Like you I voted against the Piracy bill for the reasons you suggest. However, the rest of the Senate saw the issue differently and I will go along with the majority. Therefore we need to enforce our rules until we can as a group reach agreement that this is not a feasible bill..

 

Having said that this situation appears to be a misunderstanding between two empires, one of which maybe somewhat xenophobic. I would hope these two can come to an agreement with out the involvement of the Senate especially since the Phoenix Empire has a negative opinion of the Senate would not trust it as an honest broker.

[Lostworlds]

The Lostworlds empire 1290 hereby declares that it withdraws its membership from the Galatic Senate

[Kurassier]

Respectfully asked: Does that indicate a different response to the "bad" Senator?

Does the existance of a good Senator indicate/preclude existence a bad one.

 

Possibly, it depends upon all the facts and what really happened. I personally don't feel like passing judgement until I've heard all the facts.

 

As to the second, I'm sure there are 'good' and 'bad' Senators. In fact, I would not doubt that there are Empires who have joined the Galactic Senate and have no intention of abiding by the Senatorial rules.

I see the Galactic Senate as a work in progress. I don't expect all of us to agree. I also view the Senate as more of a 'loose federation' of Empires, not a military alliance (or any alliance for that matter).

For now, I am willing to support the Senate in the hope that it will become a worthwhile institution. However, should legislation pass that REQUIRES my military action, I would withdraw. I choose my own fights.

[looker]

Respectfully asked: Does that indicate a different response to the "bad" Senator?

Does the existance of a good Senator indicate/preclude existence a bad one.

 

Possibly, it depends upon all the facts and what really happened. I personally don't feel like passing judgement until I've heard all the facts.

 

As to the second, I'm sure there are 'good' and 'bad' Senators. In fact, I would not doubt that there are Empires who have joined the Galactic Senate and have no intention of abiding by the Senatorial rules.

I see the Galactic Senate as a work in progress. I don't expect all of us to agree. I also view the Senate as more of a 'loose federation' of Empires, not a military alliance (or any alliance for that matter).

For now, I am willing to support the Senate in the hope that it will become a worthwhile institution. However, should legislation pass that REQUIRES my military action, I would withdraw. I choose my own fights.

Believe it or not I agree with you!

 

Be afraid, very afraid!!

 

 

Actually, my read is most of the GS jumped right in with the "our guy can not be wrong"... routine.

 

It is refreshing to see Senator whose eyes and ears are more important than his mouth and typing finger.

 

Phoenix got back from vacation, got flu, and worked a few 14 hour days then rushed his turn in. That's a story I can relate to

 

If Phoenix was trying to scam surveys, why was he still at the warp point at which he arrived?

 

The uncorrectable error is those fine felines are all dead.

 

You sound a lot better sober...

 

Be afraid, very afraid

 

that's not a joke not a threat

 

The Senate is a great idea in bad hands

 

As an outsider, we see AKO (ako) saying what a fine fellow I am, then with his left hand pointing "look out thar be Pirates", as his left shoves a dagger into Phoenix.

 

He said she said we will probably never know

[Kurassier]

It is refreshing to see Senator whose eyes and ears are more important than his mouth and typing finger.

 

I always, errr, almost always, listen and watch before making a major decision. Habit of my former job in RL.

 

You sound a lot better sober...  Be afraid, very afraid

Believe it or not, I am always sober! can't run the bar if you can't think!

[Octus Imperium]

Boy, I'm glad I'm not part of any of your groups. That's too much reading and discussion and clutter of the galactic communications. My philosophy is much easier to deal with. Shoot first and if they're still alive....shoot again. :lol:

The Octus Imperium is in complete agreement with the above referenced clutter comment (as we adroitly contribute to such clutter). However, since we are a peaceful colonial race, we disagree with the shooting portion.

 

Unless, of course, we are provoked.

 

Octus

[EternusIV]

Hey guys really busy here was at a wedding all weekend.

 

I'll post the proposal for discussion this week and I have a few suggestions for procedure to make.

 

 

 

Looker-

 

The Senate is a great idea in bad hands

 

Thanks. All 44 hands are bad? Feel free to join and carry us in the 'right' direction

 

Another thing-

 

if it WAS a mistake - and Gary's 9 ships got blasted for it - what should the GS do about it? Punish AKO for Gary's mistake? I'm not sure what Gary actually wants to accomplish by branding AKO as a pirate under these circumstances. I am eager to find out what Gary's side is to this whole mess. Did Gary intend to send 9 in and AKO knew about it and blasted em anyway? No.

 

So whats the problem

[Dennarian Star Imperium]

Hmm let me see if I understand this so far. Pheonix Empire enters URS territory. URS says we want to talk. You can bring one ship into our space to conduct talks. Pheonix EMpire, because of confusion in orders, brings 9 ships, violating the agreement. URS vaporizes them. Someone starts screaming its piracy since Pheonix Empire didn't shoot first, and wants actions taken against URS for blowing ships up.

 

What if the ships had been 9 warships instead of pathfinders? Would he have been justified to fire upon them ? What conditions have to be met to be considered an invasion? 1 unallowed ship? 2? 50? His territory was violated in such a way that violated an agreement with a neighboring empire from what URS has said. They reason why doesnt really matter at this point. Anyone who has a problem with the defense of one's territory from an invading force please send me copies of your navigational charts so that I might send my ships into your space to just * fly around*

 

First Citizen Anastasia

[Hannibal]

AKO Posted: Jul 25 2004, 12:44 PM

I am also very interested to hear the Phoenix empire's arguments, but that's one of the main problems: in the beginning there was communication, the last 5 cycles there was none.

 

The other issue was: we agreed that Phoenix empire would send one (1) ship. There came 9. That was a clear violation of an agreement. I am interested to hear how others that qualify my actions as piracy, would have responded.

 

Please consider the following facts:

1) Phoenix empire arrived via a one way warp point into URS space

2) We agreed it was URS space

3) I stated that I had security concerns about Phoenix empire scouting.

4) We agreed that Phoenix empire would stay at the point of entry and not move until URS had found a way back to Phoenix space. There was and is no other contact as yet at any other location between our empires.

5) We agreed that Phoenix empire would send 1 ship with a diplomat to negotiate a political agreement

6) We then proposed a non agression pact (the diplomat had not yet arrived).

 

This proposal was met with silence and there has been no communication since, although I attemted to re-establish contact (email).

 

7) Unannounced 9 ships appeared, of which 7 were clearly recognisable as scouts, with names like "FS WARP-MK3" and "FS Warp2A".

8) This entry is a clear violation of the agreement mentioned above at item 5)

9) In the first step (order 1-priority 1) of the new cycle my 1st defense fleet moved in to catch them before these scout would move.

 

My main concerns were that if Phoenix empire would split his forces into 10 different fleets, it would be very difficult to track them down, and he would gather sensitive information near my home world.

 

For those critisising my actions as piracy, please explain what you would have done and why that would have been better. Please do consider my security concerns in your response. If you do not see 10 explorers scanning your space as a security concern, please explain why.

 

Kind regards,

 

I am satisfied that AKO viewed the Phoenix as a threat. His concerns are well-presented and shows he did not just decide to vaporize the threat off-the-cuff. An agreement concerning his security was made and Phoenix did violate the agreement. Confusion on the part of Phoenix?...possibly explains the entire situation. But if Phoenix wants to cry foul, where is his voice? Additionally, to cry foul, Phoenix should not make such a critical "mistake" or have "confusion" during a critical phase of negotiation. If facts are as given, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, I would have been spooked like AKO as well.

 

As an aside, why so much intersest on the part of PA in this? As Clan Elder 'Keen Posted: Jul 25 2004, 01:33 PM,

AKO, I would not get too distracted by the huffing and puffing of the Phoenix Alliance. They apparently have some interest in the matter. And after getting caught by your prudently placed safeguards, now there is an attempt to sow confusion on the political front and to make you look the aggressor.

I think the Clan Elder is very astute on this matter. Is it concern over the GS bylaws?...I think not. AKO is the only person to openly express his side in this matter.

[Phoenix Arisen]

There is no interest from Phoenix Arisen regarding this incident. These are individual's expressing their concern about interpretations of the Senate Regulations. Do not make more of it than it is.