The Colony Posted July 24, 2004 Report Share Posted July 24, 2004 Members of the Senate - We have a renegade empire within our territorial boundaries. We have currently not conducted hostile actions but have received no response from said empire: "Bene Gesserit # 1622 [silver Gom Jabbar On Skeletal Finger]". Please be advised that continued silence and attempts to map Colony space will be consired an act of war and that we are providing this information to the Senate so that we maintain our position of "non-piracy". Continued silence from this empire will result in hostile actions from our Queen Mother. Queen Mother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurassier Posted July 24, 2004 Report Share Posted July 24, 2004 There is of course nothing that prevents you from declaring war on this invader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted July 27, 2004 Report Share Posted July 27, 2004 There is of course nothing that prevents you from declaring war on this invader Yes And thereby bypassing any concerns about accusations of piracy from the Senate or other non-members on your part Unless of course it is simply used as a pretext for your own piracy?! In other words - a Senate member could bypass their obligation to abstain from piracy by using the 'declaration of war' exception as a pretext to actual piracy. Man - I think that anti-piracy bill needs a rewrite of sorts? In our haste to pass bills based upon high ideals....how are we going to enforce this stuff? Not to pick on you MMB - but have we established which space is yours and the Bene Gesserits? Are the Bene Gesserit in 'sovereign' or 'neutral' space? We need a Promulgator - STAT! This might be a situation where system beacons could clarify a territorial dispute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colony Posted July 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2004 1. Eternus - why do you refer to me as MMB? 2. Here is my issue. a) The Bene are 1 out from my home world. Sovereign space within the GS arena the refuse to answer our hails c) If I attack him I break our piracy laws. d) 1 lone pathfinder is not grounds for war. maybe their comms are down? What are we to do as a GS member without breaking our priacy rules? Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted July 27, 2004 Report Share Posted July 27, 2004 Martin (sorry your board handle has long been MMB and I'll be sure to call you Martin from now on)- Easy: if he is indeed one system out from your HW he is in sovereign space and you have every right to defend yourself. You can also declare war and the burden would be on Bene Gesserit to claim piracy. Under the circumstances, I don't think the Senate could condemn you for defending yourself. Defend yourself by all means. Nothing in the piracy rules prevents you from defending yourself! Do you read it otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Why would the Colony be forced to declare war. I believe he is asking can he take out the intruder ship without falling into the Piracy law or is he required to declare war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Oh thats right Norm is the Colony now. Sorry. Ive been totally swamped with stuff and forget things like this. I'm not the absolute authority here - but if it was me, I would defend a system one system outside my homeworld and think you have every right to do so if the BG are in sovereign space. Cmon guys - the Piracy Bill doesn't prevent every single friggin act of defense or aggression. If you read it that way - then I will be the first to clarify or propose changes to make it more clear. My take: you can always defend your territory (Senate or no Senate for that matter) The Charter isn't a complete blanket from warfare. With that said - the BG could challenge the fact that you are in 'sovereign' space - whereby you might have to prove that the BG *is* in sovereign space - but that would only happen if the BG filed a complaint. Its a screwy system atm - especially without a promulgator but its what we've come up with so far. Hope that clarifies things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Again I get confused and dismayed by the fact that you and the GS do not read the laws they pass: HANNIBAL-LOGION Anti-Piracy BillGS BILL 061704-2-04 The Galactic Senate declares piracy as a strictly illegal activity. No empire is allowed to steal or capture property belonging to another empire, unless under a declared state of war. Opening paragraph. You cannot conduct piracy unless in an act of war. Then onto the definition of what piracy is! Aha! Piracy is defined as the act of intentionally attacking, raiding, blockading, bombarding, extorting, or plundering of any thing of value, actively run by a real player, without provocation or legitimate justification. Doing anything without just provocation. But wait we defined that anything outside of declared state of war is piracy so the GS sequence must be: a) Identify Provocation (just or not) Declare war if not just (if just then you could maybe find an exception because of the conflict in the two paragraphs) c) attack the ship. Now what the colony is asking is can they attack a ship within territorial space that is acting hostile without declaring war (using paragraph two) or are the constrained to declaring war (under paragraph one) or should they just chalk the entire GS up to lots of hot air with paper documents that mean nothing. As to your initial comments. I'll chalk it up to ignorance. They Eyre have never run into a "Norm" and since you are not in contact with me or the Colony I would doubt you know who plays them. Finally...as an aside. I find your comments about having to prove the Bene are in territorial space a classic example of trying to avoid the issue and downright annoying. Since I would bet a) that the Bene have a copy of the start up of the Colony (or should) since they were both GSL members and you are working extensively with the Bene and several other players so you probably would have access to the information that they Bene are in GSL space and c) you and your allies commented that you were in my territorial space and d) the Bene your allies emailed me (the one email I got) that they knew they were one out (and oh wait you are allied with the Bene) and d) your other ally the Apshai have repeated the same information several times to me......well I could add a few points but we will leave it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali-t-akua Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 To The Colony. I support your right to self defense and consider it a legitimate justification. Per the Piracy law Piracy is defined as the act of intentionally attacking, raiding, blockading, bombarding, extorting, or plundering of any thing of value, actively run by a real player, without provocation or legitimate justification. The Senate needs to identify what these legitimate justifications are. I am working on a proposal but as that will not be decided before the next vote of the Senate, my advice is you should take what action you deem necessary to protect your HW. Its what I would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurassier Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 without provocation or legitimate justification. I'd say, from what I've heard, he has legitimate justification to nuke him. I would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Wow, go away for a bit and things really go crazy in the galaxy... MadMartinB Posted on Jul 27 2004, 09:18 PM Again I get confused and dismayed by the fact that you and the GS do not read the laws they pass: This senator's position is that he does read the laws he votes on. I read them and determine if their meaning and intent are in line with my thinking...notice I said their meaning and intent. I don't lawyer away at each and every little point. That is my way. The Senate has its laws, and they can not be perfect for all who wish to nitpick them away. I respect those who don't like the Senate, albeit mostly because they are bored and find negativity so much easier to broadcast than actual commitment to anything. I find many of the latest comments about the "Senate laws" to be nothing substantive. The way is clear, if you wish to see it. If the Colony wants to blow away the offending ship...have at it. It's in Colony space...period. Hang your hat on that one HUGE principle of sovereign territory and move on. The Senate does not need to define each and every tidbit...if there is question over a violation, the Senate can vote on it. It's the big things that matter here. I ask the Senators to not be overwhelmed by the chaff, but stick to the meaty matters of the galaxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turok Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Typical senatorial arrogance. I don't like the senate because I "am bored and find negativity so much easier to broadcast than actual commitment to anything." Utter claptrap. I don't want to join the Senate because I don't want to spend my time negotiating laws that mean nothing and are changed every 5 minutes. Half the nonsense you lot discuss is only understood by the person writing it. It's not a Senate it's a Red Tape debating society where you all try to outdo eachother with words normal people just don't use. "The Senate does not need to define each and every tidbit". Absolutely right but unfortunately it does and always will because that's the way it operates. I am far from bored and I am utterly committed to my cause - the destruction of the Senate Long live WHAPO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinian Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Turok Posted on Jul 28 2004, 07:30 AM Utter claptrap. I don't want to join the Senate because I don't want to spend my time negotiating laws that mean nothing and are changed every 5 minutes. Half the nonsense you lot discuss is only understood by the person writing it. It's not a Senate it's a Red Tape debating society where you all try to outdo eachother with words normal people just don't use...I am far from bored and I am utterly committed to my cause - the destruction of the Senate Long live WHAPO Your willingness to stand for nothing you can be held accountable for is noted. And the GS laws are not changed every 5 minutes, but rather under attack every 5 minutes because they are not specific enough for those who are not even members. If you don't like those of us willing to debate, run along to your WHAPO group. Or is it that you're afraid we'll all forget about you if you stop showing up with the "you can't do that", "it won't work", and "I'm just gonna vaporize you" comments in Senate threads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Interesting position Senator Justinian of the Roman Empire #760. Have you brought an ally to the fray? Best wishes to you and your ilk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinian Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 MadMartinB Posted on Jul 28 2004, 03:54 PM Interesting position Senator Justinian of the Roman Empire #760. Have you brought an ally to the fray? Best wishes to you and your ilk. What position is it you refer to? I'm merely trying to defend the Senate's efforts in a Senate thread. I'm amused that so many who deride the Senate's debates wish to have such a part in the very debates they deride. And what fray? Are we speaking of debate, or do you mean the way you are currently ignoring all attempts "my ilk" have made to establish a border with your Eyre? We couldn't help but note your ships are currently violating Roman space and emails go unanswered...but that is another story as yet unwritten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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