Weak Ship Screens

[Locklyn]

Actually that is not with Tckon 68...that's old news There are other interesting techs that give ridicoulous integrity values for low tonnage investment. Now if I only actually could find someone to fight, everyone I come across has usually dropped, seems to be the curse of the "core" positions

 

Cheers

/Locklyn

[ali-t-akua]

Actually that is not with Tckon 68...that's old news There are other interesting techs that give ridicoulous integrity values for low tonnage investment. Now if I only actually could find someone to fight, everyone I come across has usually dropped, seems to be the curse of the "core" positions

 

Cheers

/Locklyn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It is one aspect of the game design that makes it tough for some people to stick with. The slow pace really orients the game toward empire builders rather than warriors. Of course I am happy as a clam. I have met another empire that is still alive.

[hobknob]

There are several solutions to swarm tactics that have proven to be viable and none of them involved a counter swarm.

 

Try this one:

 

Build a large missile ship with tons of shields and armor as well as specific defenses and then send it in at range 12. Make sure that it has enough fire power to still inflict a sufficient damage to kill the swarm and then turn it loose. You had best have a couple of these to work in successive orders and give them the best FC that you can, something like 20 or so would be nice, but double that with the next tech upgrade and you will be better off. Don't use LC's for your FC since they will be lost in combat.

 

This ship will run in and sit at max range to get the best defensive bonus while spitting out lots of globs of damage that should be enough to take out elements of the swarm. Several of these should reduce a swarm to more manageable numbers.

 

 

The up side to an enemy building swarms of ships is the relative lack of other ships that can be built at the same time and the expense of running 100's of shipyards a turn.

 

 

[Paradigm]

You'll kill a few swarm ships that way hobknob but it won't be a fair exchange.

 

I think I'm going to stop here. I would be fun to debate but I dont' want to end up convincing everyone to start building huge swarm fleets. Let's just wait for the inevitable battle reports someone will eventually post.

 

Locklyn: I'm shocked. I thought you were a peace loving alien and were only swarming-up to defend your HW.

[WKE235]

So now we have folks pumping out 200+ screen ships per turn, in order to make up for potential enemy increases in fire rates due to tech advances.  This whole naval combat system is turning into a farce.  Is this what the game is degenerating into?  Everyone building huge fleets of tiny screen ships, to sit in front of the capital ships and act as the most efficent defenses in the game?  Battles involving thousands and thousands of 1K ton ships, and a few mega ships hiding behind them.  Multiple hundred page battle reports showing all the tiny ships destroyed on page after page (I bet that will go over well with the email). 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's what several of us have been warning about for a long time now. Pete swears there is a simple counter to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Pete's simple counter to it in the one case where I twice sent an exploration ship into an area where the enemy had 1000+ ships: The battle reports were suppressed to display only a simple "Your ship destroyed" message. Admittedly I did not complain as having the enemy ships listed out twice (two battles) to simply see I did nothing (unarmed ships) would have been a big waste.

[Locklyn]

Paradigm: Oh I am peaceloving, it seems if I bring the biggest, baddest and largest number of guns everywhere I go, people tend to be very peaceful in dealing with me Actually the only battle I've lost so far was when one of my survey ships accidentally moved over an active players homeworld

 

I'm still not convinced by Hobknobs argument as you can create your spawn fleets with varied weapon types of different ranges, even through in a couple of pure FC screen ships that you place far back and voila you have a spawn screen fleet which has an FC of 10, dishes out enough damage to take on a battlecruiser and will take a while to whittle down...but I guess time will show if I am wrong or right...and I'm already changing production to 4000 ton screen ships which I guess will prove both more durable and do more damage...

 

Cheers

/Locklyn

[hobknob]

I would suggest that you would kill more than a few swarm ships in my suggested manner, however I will agree that a few relevant posts would be much appreciated.

 

[General Miles Avatar]

I always looked at those <10k ships as just big fighters, thats all they really are and are acting like. They just are not cut down by PD fire.

 

A space fleet with hundreds or thousands of 2k ton figs? Doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Advanced fighters properly equipped with pulse engines are also very hard to cut down and a carrier fleet of sufficient size can carry thousands into combat.

backed up by heavy screen ships perhaps from an allied empire they would make

a very potent force.

[Locklyn]

Of course perhaps there is small difference between a 1000 ton screen ship and a 500 ton Combat Gunboat but I still think we'll see that people will have swarms of screen ships in their offensive and defensive fleets despite what Hobknob says, time may prove me wrong though. Perhaps I should offer up some examples of design for screen ships currently in use by me and on the drawing board for the future so we can play some numbers around. I don't have my docs with me here at the hospital where I'm on a borrowed laptop right now with a very sexy nurse telling me I really should be sleeping instead of ranting on like this But I will attempt to get some out there for discussions.

 

Of course swarm/spawn fleets are especially helpful in HW system or even HW defense where their integrity goes up even further. I think many people forget to calculate the incoming WP size to the HW system as the minimum FC needed for a HW system defensive fleet.

 

Anyone else notice that last turns battlereports were not all kosher with things missing from them?

 

Cheers

/Locklyn

[EternusIV]

Some good comments here for sure.

 

I won't resurrect the zombie of over a year ago from whence we first discussed the issue...instead I'll nudge his dead cousin

 

Paradigm said it nicely: you can beat those screenies using the various methods described...but the most efficient counter is, well, more screens of your own. I can't ignore the resource efficiency considerations in this game but I really really really wish I could. Once the inevitable realization of The Screen Ship Quandry comes into focus, it precludes other strategies if you are playing the game to survive in the long haul against the warmongers who will use it.

 

With that said, I'm surprised how few players actually adopt screens....making me breathe a little easier everytime I encounter such an empire, for the primary reason that it allows me to experiment with less efficient strategies and have, well, more fun

 

The lure of SNROTE is its open-endedness, which it undoubtedly has. However, space combat has yet to prove itself as the ideal arena for the potential of the game's ship design. The choices are -- Rock-Scissors-Paper? or Sand Fights? I guess I should explain. When I envision screen ships fighting each other it reminds me of two idiots throwing sand at each other.../shrug

 

Lastly, fire control is not the savior for the screen strategy as you might suspect. Most of us have the numbers...punch it into a spreadsheet for yourself and witness the resource battle. In the time it took you to develop FCS-154's, your opponent has maxed out armor and thrown up a single Mk 2000 shield to torture you.

 

Until I'm thoroughly convinced otherwise (and won't expect that to happen for another year or two, if it all) The Screen Ship Quandry is nothing more than a race between Armor and Fire Control. And Locklyn my friend , I must humbly but most assuringly state that NOTHING is more efficient than armor on a resource analysis for building integrity. Tonnage efficiency is one thing...resources used to build that tonnage is another If you've found something more resource efficient than the highest armor, I'd be tickled to see proof...(and surprised at the discovery as well )

 

As I see it, there are two ways to play games. Over the past year I've tried to ween myself from being a MAX/MIN/SPREADSHEET person and enjoy the ride with experimenting with less efficient paths to building an empire. Luckily SNROTE is full of similar-minded folk who don't care if the Greasy Burger Gun tech path is less 'ub3r' than pursuing the Two-Mile Thick Armor Screenie tech path. By golly, slinging greasy burgers at aliens is more FUN than hiding behind heavily-armored gnats! But I suppose depression sets in once you see that the burgers were useless against the giant hulk of metal housing the Mk XXII Frostgun From Hell......

[Locklyn]

Eternus,

 

Good to see you posting again .)

 

While I agree that Tckon 68 at 1000 Integrity per ton is the most resource efficient for what you need to create it at 100 000 integrity per 100 tons of Tckon 68 when screen ships or for that matter any ship where you have to consider the tonnage I've found the (Deleted For Security Reasons) while slightly more costly to produce which is not a problem in itself, give 250 000 per 100 tons. Which would I choose? Of course the latter since it gives more bang for bucks for the same tonnage and when optimising 1000 Ton Screens or even 4000 ton screens every 100 tons count and count well when you have to waste things on such foolishness as fuel tankage, jump drives and engines Thank god for surface forts that just can be weapons and armor and with a x9 bonus to the integrity

 

The one major problem with screens are mobility, they take forever to get anywhere untill you start having a decent gate network thus it can be prudent to send out groups of screen ships to strategic locations even before having hostilities commence...the lack of mobility will be damaging to your opponent as well...

 

Cheers

/Locklyn

[Locklyn]

Btw...if the Black Hole Dynasty is still active...you can trade for some of those 250 000 thingies I'm in your neck of the woods with three explorer fleets so is a common friend of ours.

 

Cheers

/Locklyn

[hobknob]

I have also done the math and the hinted at item is better on every front than the best armor. The numbers don't lie. Unfortunately it will take 10 years for most empires to actually get toa point where that would really matter. By then, weapons will be dishing out millions of damage to make up for it.

 

[Hughestrog]

I have also done the math and the hinted at item is better on every front than the best armor.  The numbers don't lie.  Unfortunately it will take 10 years for most empires to actually get toa point where that would really matter.  By then, weapons will be dishing out millions of damage to make up for it.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

OK I'm curious (as are probably alot of people). I know no-one's going to tell me about the 'hinted at item' but if it's going to take years for the rest of us to get to that point, how'd Locklyn get there quickly?

 

Discoveries?

[Paradigm]

EternusIV: I suspect the reason not many people seem to have adopted the mega-screen tactic is because they find it cheesy and/or distasteful and/or simply not fun, so they take what they consider a more honorable/fun approach. But all that will go out the window as soon as someone uses it successfully against them. If it's play the system or die, I'll play as will most.