Dropping the Game

[Octus Imperium]

I agree with everyone who will miss the posts and presence of the cats. While all the hand wringing is an interesting window into human behavior, the fact of the matter is one player wants to turn a neighborhood into a war zone, which is perfectly within their 'rights'. Another player would prefer peace, which is also within their 'rights'. But in this situation BOTH players are losing. The peaceful empire builder is dropping (losing the enjoyment of playing the position) and the war monger now has another dropped position to fight, instead of the professed desire to have an active opponent (losing their primary reason for attacking in the first place!).

 

Perhaps too late for compromise, but how could both players retain their positions and enjoyment? Empire builder engages in trade with war monger and the war monger attacks someone who wants to be focused on battles. Immediately, the Empire Builder 'wins' and eventually the war monger 'wins' even bigger. How? War monger has a trading partner to help feed their war machine, so is better prepared with more exciting materials for that eventual 'Battle of the SN Stars' when it finds the ultimate enemy. This will probably not happen immediately, so the war monger would need to be patient (apparently not part of the role playing plan) and willing to be flexible. But why not? It's lost an active adversary now, so it's back to searching for a worthy opponent and the tedium of exploration.

 

BTW, has anyone heard of the concept of 'sunk cost' around here? Once the money is spent, it is spent! Your 'investment' return is the enjoyment of the game and the stack of paper or electronic printouts and spreadsheets you have! I doubt you're getting your money back from this 'investment'. So get over the money spent...it's gone! And should not be a reason for making future decisions about the game. Make your money decisions about FUTURE spending!

 

Just my two cents.

 

And the cats will be missed!

 

Octus Imperium

 

In a peaceful corner of the universe. If I found a dropped position for the kitties, I'd be happy to have them as neighbors! (Despite my RL cat allergy.)

[Paradigm]

1.  I think it's a shame the big cat is dropping.

 

2.  He doesn't have too, he could fight.

 

3.  How is this the Bloody guy's fault?

 

4.  Does Magus666 believe he can read minds?

 

5.  I'd be distraught if my 1st empire was crushed, but it would have to be crushed for me to drop it now (I've spent hundreds of dollars as well).

 

6.  RP is RP.  If you want to have a Galactic Senate and sing "Kumbayah," go ahead, WHAPO, Starbars, and all the other somewhat RP players out there will carry on with whatever RP they're doing (Magus666, New Spartans HATE bugs).

 

7.  Advanced neutrals?

 

8.  I still think it's a shame the big cat is dropping.

 

9.  Big cats have a natural advantage over blind, religious fanatics dripping with blood. 

 

10.  The big cat should fight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I pretty much agree with all of what Lord Uriel wrote.

 

Don't play a game with guns if you don't want to risk getting shot. There are some non-combat games out there. Quite a few with combat but where it is not possible to actually be eliminated. Not sure about non-combat PBEM games though.

 

Gjor'haan has made no secrets of what type of empire he runs. If I had him as a neighbor, I would be preparing for the inevitable war. These games need the "evil" forces. For a majority of players these games are dull without the bad guys. I even miss the old SN2 Death Machine races.

 

I think the weapons/armor/etc research system is reasonably fair. I wager that if Sha'thar stood and fought, put 25 RC's in to weapons and armor, started building bases and forts, etc. she could give Gjor'haan a fight.

 

It is sad to see one of the colorful charter members leave the game, and one of the few remaining elder races go quiescent, but it is unreasonable to play a game full of war options and be upset when someone attacks you after 3 years of gameplay. I still say fight it out for awhile. If you go down, go down fighting. Make it that much harder for your enemy to defeat the next guy. The total costs to date part is a thin excuse. Everyone that has been in the game awhile can start adding up turn sheet costs and come up with a big number. I bet you could do the same for soft drinks / cigarettes / loose women / cat toys / movie tickets / lottery tickets / music / etc. etc. etc., any entertainment spending made in small amounts over several years time, and come up with similar totals. Does that mean you should give up all entertainment and become a monk (apologies to all the players out there role playing entire races of monks)?

 

How about this Sha'thar'y?: If you have planned to drop anyway, why not first post the warp points report section of your latest turn results here on the board and see if anyone wants to come to your aid and make it a good fight. Or perhaps someone will want to come take your homeworld from Gjor'haan. Preserve a bit of the Gosht Kohr dignity in the end.

[ali-t-akua]

Wow!! I am sorry to hear that Sha'Thar is leaving. I would certainly go to the aid of the Big Cats if I could as they have been a good firent.

 

Having said that I would echo what some of the others have said. I am pursuing the exploration/colonization strategy myself and would hate to be attacked BUT I know that combat is a possibility and so I am also trying to be sure I can be prepated for that eventuality. One of the things I am grateful for is that this game is constructed so that it is difficult to knock out an active player.

 

Sha'Thar please do not drop. Fight it out. You have my moral support and if there is a connection between our empires, you can have my material support as well. This religious fanaticism must be stopped.

[TErnest]

BTW, has anyone heard of the concept of 'sunk cost' around here? Once the money is spent, it is spent! Your 'investment' return is the enjoyment of the game and the stack of paper or electronic printouts and spreadsheets you have! I doubt you're getting your money back from this 'investment'. So get over the money spent...it's gone! And should not be a reason for making future decisions about the game. Make your money decisions about FUTURE spending!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While everything you said here is correct, Octus, I think you missed the point, IMHO.

 

If all of what you stated were taken purely at face value, then the term 'investment' would no more apply to SNROTE than it would to a trip to the movie theater. Further, if true, then half of all positions would be dropped every turn, in favor of newly created positions, because the value of playing a new position would be the same as playing an old one.

 

But we do make investments in our positions. Not just money, but time, effort, and tender loving care. There IS accumulated value in an older position. And we are each deeply emotionally invested our SNROTE babies. This sense of emotional investment may be even greater for one who only runs one position in the game, as is the case with Gosht Kohr.

 

(Side note: by my experience, when someone is experiencing a sense of loss that they have trouble verbalizing, they sometimes express that loss in terms of a loss if monetary investement... perhaps for the lack of a more handy symbol.)

 

I agree fully that one should only look at future expenditures to determine whether one should stop playing. In other words, "If the game stops being fun, then stop paying for it!" But if one does lose one's emotional investment in a position, then it may act as a disincentive to start over with a new position, with "zero" accumulated value. This is especially true if one perceives that the evenual end of this new emotional investment may just be the same.

 

And indeed, if you look back at Gosht Kohr's original post... this is almost exactly what he expressed.

 

TErnest

[Lord Xaar]

I don't know the particulars of this conflict, but I do agree with those that think it is a shame to see Shar'thar leave us. I'd say the same if Gjorhaan annouced he was leaving us. Some of the personalities on these boards add as much to my enjoyment of the game as any game feature does.

 

In the game (as in life, perhaps) one's enjoyment is in proportion to one's ability to adapt.

 

Shar'thar: if there is any chance you might stay I hope you find it. The current circumstances might not fit with how you wanted to play, but we can't always choose these things.... Three years of financial and emotional investment should end because some religious zealot points a gun at you? The memory of blood in the jaws of the great cats will dim?

 

Gjorhaan: Shar'thar is not the only player that could question their ability to adapt.... It comes down to what you think will provide the most enjoyment to you and your gaming dollars. It sounds like you have a position to be feared if the collectors, the bon-bon kings and now the great cats are leaving the game rather than face you. Being feared in a empty section of space is an empty thing itself.

 

-LX

[Octus Imperium]

BTW, has anyone heard of the concept of 'sunk cost' around here? Once the money is spent, it is spent! Your 'investment' return is the enjoyment of the game and the stack of paper or electronic printouts and spreadsheets you have! I doubt you're getting your money back from this 'investment'. So get over the money spent...it's gone! And should not be a reason for making future decisions about the game. Make your money decisions about FUTURE spending!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While everything you said here is correct, Octus, I think you missed the point, IMHO.

 

If all of what you stated were taken purely at face value, then the term 'investment' would no more apply to SNROTE than it would to a trip to the movie theater. Further, if true, then half of all positions would be dropped every turn, in favor of newly created positions, because the value of playing a new position would be the same as playing an old one.

 

But we do make investments in our positions. Not just money, but time, effort, and tender loving care. There IS accumulated value in an older position. And we are each deeply emotionally invested our SNROTE babies. This sense of emotional investment may be even greater for one who only runs one position in the game, as is the case with Gosht Kohr.

 

(Side note: by my experience, when someone is experiencing a sense of loss that they have trouble verbalizing, they sometimes express that loss in terms of a loss if monetary investement... perhaps for the lack of a more handy symbol.)

 

I agree fully that one should only look at future expenditures to determine whether one should stop playing. In other words, "If the game stops being fun, then stop paying for it!" But if one does lose one's emotional investment in a position, then it may act as a disincentive to start over with a new position, with "zero" accumulated value. This is especially true if one perceives that the evenual end of this new emotional investment may just be the same.

 

And indeed, if you look back at Gosht Kohr's original post... this is almost exactly what he expressed.

 

TErnest

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My comments about sunk cost were relective of the entire message thread at that point, not specific to the original post. And we all make emotional as well as intellectual connections to most of the things we do/experience in life, some deep, some superficial. It is just wise to put them into perspective (such as the sunk cost concept) so one is aware of why one is doing something. It helps inform decision making. It may not change a decision, just better inform it.

 

So I think we are not that far apart on this.

 

I still wish the cuddley furr balls with sharp teeth and claws would stick around. The SN universe will be poorer without them.

 

Octus

[Lord Uriel]

The big cats should fight, for no other reason than to defend the pridelands. Now, if we were talking about bugs of some sort, then I would show up with some Ortho products ....

 

However, short of the bloody guy having some sort of Mk XX Ultimate Spitwad of Destruction, an actively played HW on the defensive seems to be playable. This is only conjecture (sp?) on my part, I can only go from what's been posted on the forums.

 

It appears that a player could go from low tech to very high tech in one or more techs during the course of 6 months real life.

 

Again, the pridelands should fight. Who will defend the cubs? Think about the cubs!

 

If the big cats are defeated we will mourn their loss, but at least the blind zealot shouldn't get anything for free.

 

*sigh*

 

Someday in the future, perhaps the finest infantry in known space will raze the bloody guys HW, knock over his cauldron, smack the zealot around for a few and then send him off with catnip dusted all over him to the liberated big cats. Only time will tell.

 

As a side note, wasn't it just a little while ago that the blind bloody guy was on the verge of defeat himself?

[EternusIV]

Perhaps the Great Cat could channel through a separate empire? Does anybody have a second position they would be willing to transfer in a quieter neighborhood with players who prefer to work together?

 

Isolating Gjor'haan with dropped positions offers some ironic justice, but in a way, isn't there also punishment for those who prefer to play aggressively if their victims drop early in the war?

 

My head hurts.

 

There is no easy answer

 

TGIF!

[WKE235]

Isolating Gjor'haan with dropped positions offers some ironic justice, but in a way, isn't there also punishment for those who prefer to play aggressively if their victims drop early in the war?   

 

TGIF! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ummm ... Put an MMB run empire next to them???

[cestvel]

Please do not leave, put up a fight. You made these boards so much more enjoyable.

 

If we get in contact I will support with all what I have.

[WKE235]

6.  RP is RP.  If you want to have a Galactic Senate and sing "Kumbayah," go ahead, WHAPO, Starbars, and all the other somewhat RP players out there will carry on with whatever RP they're doing (Magus666, New Spartans HATE bugs).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Role Playing can make a game more enjoyable. But there is a limit to how far folks can take it. I believe it's best to balance any role playing that with the fact that I am playing with other folks. While it is a game, only a game, a lot of emotions can get tied up into the time and effort spent in a game position. So in open ended games like this, I never let the role playing decide my actions. I decide on an action (which typically means not hurting another player, depending on what is going on) and then, apply role playing to spice it up. Creativity in the role playing to make it apply to what you decide is part of the enjoyment. Letting role playing decide and using it as an excuse for actions, well, that's just seems wrong.

[NeilGartner]

Please do not leave, put up a fight. You made these boards so much more enjoyable.

 

If we get in contact I will support with all what I have.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with Cestvel. I enjoy reading your posts and to be blunt, you can't abandon 3 years of investment without a struggle to protect it. Could you be overestimating his strength? Also, there has to be other options like barricading the warp points between you and him or finding allies. If I could, I would gladly send everything I have to help you.

 

Please stay with us and in the stirring words of a great starship captain...Click Here

[Gary Carpenter]

THe PA Might be willing to give you an empire in a relatively safe area. We also might be willing to take the cats and fight it out. Returning the cats to you if justice triumphs and the cats win.

 

Will have to talk to all the members, if you are interested.

[Gary Carpenter]

Also, 30 for Industry vrs the 400 percent needed for weapons does not take into account

NOT needing to build

engines

Trans warp drives

fuel tanks

Fuel shuttles

ECT, IF you are just going to defend

 

Plus hopefully you have MORE than the 450,000 starting industry

[hobknob]

Actually I accounted for that. There is no need for either side to research engines so they don't have to count for much, but you are correct about fuel tanks and other requirments to move. Everything else I assumed would remain equal. There are also lots of strategies that could be employed to help equalize things.

 

My main point was that industrial research does not keep up with war materiel research since armor and weaposn double with each level and industrial advances are much slower.