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Dropping the Game


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Folks-

 

I've decided to drop SN:ROTE. I have to admit that I was much more interested in the trade/exploration aspects of the game than in the warfare options.

 

My assumption of the Collectors position, done only because I thought everyone in my area had dropped, attracted the attention and ire of another empire of much greater technology. The Gosht Kohr had already made contact with said empire. My offers to drop the Collectors position and pull any and all exploration fleets out of adjoining territories were for naught.

 

I've no interest in sitting through the demise of an empire which has taken three years to build, especially since said demise is at the hands of someone who just thinks its fun, and who seems to have no consideration for how other players may be interested in playing the game.

 

In the early part of this game, there was discussion in these forums about what the nature of SN:ROTE was. Some held that it was an empire-building sim. Others held that it was strictly a wargame. I think it can be both, as long as players honor one another.

 

That appears to not be what's happened to the Gosht Kohr. Taking another position in the game holds no appeal, as this event could just happen again. Having counted my turns and multiplying by $6, no thank you.

 

Thanks to Russ and Pete for creating a generally very enjoyable and addicting game, and best of luck to all. A suggestion to non-warlike players out there; turtle-up!

 

-Sha'thar and player

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Sorry to see you go mate, you've had a consistent style and flair to your postings that has always inspired and have been a good read. Hope you find some game down the road that will inspire you to further adventures, if not drop me a line and I know that I'd want you in a beta test for a game thats being launched this winter hopefully.

 

Cheers and best of luck to you

 

/Locklyn

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Wow. Sorry to see you go. It seems that you werent one of the majority who apparently feel that Combat is all SN is about. Sure, they SAY that things like espionage, religions, etc., would be nice to have working reliably, but there is always something more important- combat.

 

As someone posted (quite rudely) in another thread on a similar topic -

 

"Trying to make the game what you want it to be, while it is not that type of game, certainly won't get RTG to change the whole system.

 

Learn and experience what the game is like (and about), then make a judgement on it concerning wether you'd like to keep playing it or not."

 

Well since youve been playing for 3 years, I guess you have had ample time to make that decision. It seems that not only a "flawed" combat system can knock someone "unfairly" out of the game, but a "working" one can too, when so many other important things arent. But of course, they ARENT as important...unless, of course, you are the one who is getting killed for NOT emphasising combat.

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Wow. Sorry to see you go. It seems that you werent one of the majority who apparently feel that Combat is all SN is about. Sure, they SAY that things like espionage, religions, etc., would be nice to have working reliably, but there is always something more important- combat.

 

As someone posted (quite rudely) in another thread on a similar topic -

 

"Trying to make the game what you want it to be, while it is not that type of game, certainly won't get RTG to change the whole system.

 

Learn and experience what the game is like (and about), then make a judgement on it concerning wether you'd like to keep playing it or not."

 

Well since youve been playing for 3 years, I guess you have had ample time to make that decision. It seems that not only a "flawed" combat system can knock someone "unfairly" out of the game, but a "working" one can too, when so many other important things arent. But of course, they ARENT as important...unless, of course, you are the one who is getting killed for NOT emphasising combat.

 

I realize that you have a political axe to grind here, Magus666. And I am not at all unsympathetic to your viewpoint. But, I think that in this particular case, your comments are misplaced.

 

Gosht Kohr is not dropping because the espionage aspect of SNROTE is not fully developed. Nor due to lack of religous rules, nor the inability to commit piracy. What Gosht Kohr most enjoyed about SNROTE (if you will allow me to speak on your behalf, Rick) were the exploration, colonization and trade aspects of the game. All of which are already VERY well developed.

 

In point of fact, he is not dropping due to a lack of rules developement in any one area, but, as he has stated, because his particular neighborhood became too hostile for him to continue to enjoy his particular style of play. Even if all the rules you wish for had been implemented, the result would have been the same.

 

Farwell, Gosht Kohr!

I mourn your passage.

 

TErnest

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Thank you for expressing your viewpoint, even if it does miss the point entirely.

 

Yes, he may well be dropping "because his particular neighborhood became too hostile for him to continue to enjoy his particular style of play". Does that in some way contradict what I said, or does it support it? He chose not to play a combat oriented position and paid the price.

 

He preferred "exploration, colonization and trade aspects of the game. All of which are already VERY well developed." Perhaps, although with the possible exception of colonization, I think there would be alot of disagreement with that statement. Since his opponent is far superior technologically, maybe he could trade for the tech knowledge he needs to protect himself? No...cant do that.

 

Its a simple point. As long as the only viable option is to be combat oriented or risk this kind of thing...well this is going to happen. "Even if all the rules... had been implemented, the result would have been the same." Again...perhaps. But at least he would have had other options besides just watching his position go down in flames helplessly.

 

Nevertheless...this topic is ended here.

 

Good luck, Gosht Kohr! I hope you find something more to your liking (and let us know about it).

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Oh no :(

 

This is very sad news.

 

Drat I wanted to hear the stories of large cats mauling the crap out of the brain blobs!

 

Are you dealing with a head-in-the-sand warmonger? Are there any allies in the area that can help you kick his butt? :cheers: Have you considered starting a new empire? :cheers: + :alien: = :taz:

 

I'm guessing that you've exhausted your options in coming to your decision.

 

Game flaws aside, I think it would be hard to enjoy an empire builder game if you were surrounded by raving warmongers. I refuse to judge on how you (or anybody) choose to play the game and I'm sorry to see that you ended up in a nasty hood given your preference of play. I've dabbled in a few positions, and none has seen as much bloodshed as yours have. Luck of the draw for some, unlucky for you :(

 

 

Please keep in touch and pop in every once in a while.

 

 

You will be sorely missed :(

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My assumption of the Collectors position, done only because I thought everyone in my area had dropped, attracted the attention and ire of another empire of much greater technology.  The Gosht Kohr had already made contact with said empire.  My offers to drop the Collectors position and pull any and all exploration fleets out of adjoining territories were for naught.

 

I've no interest in sitting through the demise of an empire which has taken three years to build, especially since said demise is at the hands of someone who just thinks its fun, and who seems to have no consideration for how other players may be interested in playing the game.

 

This is what I find the most surprising? disturbing? curious? about this whole thing. Despite trying everything to please a neighbor, this offending other player has decided to attack. And it appears they want to attack specifically as the Sha'thar is run by an active player. If all this aggressive enemy wanted was to expand, well they did offer to drop the Collector position, thus leaving it open to smash into and eventually take. But they have choosen to go after the active spot.

 

I can only surmise that after 3 years of play, and a long period of contact between the two players, this other player has gotten bored with the game. And they decided that to relieve their boredom, they needed to attack someone .. and the collector thing just became a weak excuse to justify their actions. Nothing else would make sense.

 

Another aspect that disturbs me is the "Greater Technology" phrase. One aspect of the game has always been RTG's comments that they put in a lot of effort to make sure R&D was not something that would unbalance the game .. something where tech would not be so one-sided that the one side would stand no chance. But that is exactly what is being claimed here. Which makes me wonder what type of tech difference did exist, and how this happened? IS the game unbalanced in that concentrated efforts on certain items (like armor, force shields, and a nasty weapon) can give too much of an advantage to a player over someone spending some time and effort on things like Horizon Techs?

 

Lastly -- the best help in this type of situation is friends and neighbors, to support your defense. Does anyone know of the offending player here ... and perhaps a group of white knights can arise to crush the evil empire?

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There is a disparity in tech for weapons and armor vs just about everything else. Take two empires A and B;

 

Empire A devotes 1 RC to a single weapon, 1 RC to shields and 1 RC to armor and the remaining 22 RC's to industrial/economic advances.

 

Empire B does the reverse and devotes 3 RC's to infrastructure and industrial advances while the remaining 22 RC's are invested in the weapons of war.

 

Give both positions enough time to get well enough along the path to glory before they meet. Say this takes 2 years, which is about 50 turns. At that point Empire A will have a 30% industrial bonus and will have the tech to build improved industries. He will likely have DCS tech as well. His weapon/armor/shield systems of choice will be at level 3 across the board and about 1/3 of the way to level 4.

 

Empire B will have about the same industrial capacity that he started with as he probably won't have any industrial bonus yet and will not be able to build improved industries. Weapons development will be at level 5 and proceeding quickly to level 6. If he was a bit lucky with scientist hits then both armor and shields will be at level 5 as well and progressing toward level 6.

 

Now when these two positions meet, position A adopts the friendly "lets not fight" attitude while empire B adopts the "aggressive" attitude and decides to wage war.

 

Looking at weapons, level 5 weapons are 4 times as good as level 3 weapons and level 5 armor is 5 times as good as level 3 armor.

 

If everything were completely balanced you could build more of a lesser weapon or armor to be equivalent to a fewer number of higher tech weapons. But things aren't balanced and in this example Empire A would need to produce 400% the finished materials as empire B in order to have parity weapon and armor wise. As Empire A has only got a 30% edge in industrial might, it should be apparent to all that Empire B will win the day and be able to add Empire A to the trophy wall of shame.

 

This is rather simplistic, but the numbers fit. In reality, Empire A can choose to use his industrial might to build better fleets, albeit of lower tech.

 

 

Why then don't all of the non aggressive types get gobbled up? I think it is summed up with armor multipliers for orbitals and surface stuff. That alone can make up for much.

 

End of example....

 

 

:(:cheers::cheers:

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The Empire in question was indeed the Gjor'haan (and I'm not sure of the spelling either). I have to admit that my concern about the advancement of his technology come from ships of his I have seen and the knowledge that he has been involved in direct armed conflict for some time now.

 

It is not the game system which concerns me here. As I've said before, the SN:ROTE system is great, and only promises to get better. My problem is with the attitude of the Gjor'haan player who will not even consider options to conflict in the game. I submit the most recent message to me from him. Notes in () are mine.

 

---------

 

A brief response to your request:

 

1) Do what you wish with the Collectors. Renouncing your control of the position does not affect my decision for war.

 

2) Gosht Kohr claims over ANY systems are only so valid to the degree you protect those systems. Renouncing your 'control' over any systems means nothing to me.

 

3) The colony in Nikandr (a small Gosht Kohr colony on the border, which I had proposed leaving for trade purposes) will not be spared. Why should they be spared?

 

4) Your enjoyment of the game is beyond my control. I'm already having fun tongue.gif

 

I suggest you prepare to the teeth for war. Future attempts to reconcile will be ignored.

 

Again, please don't take it personal. I'm roleplaying and sticking to my strategy; I think my hundreds of dollars invested into this position entitles me to play it out as such.

 

------

 

He does have a valid point; he's spent a lot of money to play the game he's wanted to play, so on some levels I can't fault him. Sadly, there are empires allied to the cats in my section of the universe. I suspect that the Collectors and the Bob Bon Kings dropped because they wanted to have a chance to do something other than constantly fight for survival, but only they could speak to that.

 

I may take a friend's suggestion: advertise a desire to take the reigns of a small, boring empire in a quiet corner of the universe and do some gardening.

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Well, yes, he does have a valid point. He chose to play the game...and chose to play a combat type position apparently. He spends his money, and has a right to enjoy the game.

 

On the other hand...you also spend your money, and have a right to enjoy the game. Does his right outweigh yours? Certainly, if SN were a wargame, then yes, there have to be winners and losers in a conflict, and the loser, while he may not enjoy losing, has to accept that as a consequence of the nature of the game. If, however, SN is NOT essentially a wargame (just a game in which combat is one ASPECT), then no, his desire for "roleplaying and sticking to my strategy" does not give him the right to interfere with YOUR enjoyment of the game any more than the "hundreds of dollars invested into this position entitles me to play it out as such."

 

Now, Im not entirely sure how to RESOLVE this dilemma. It would be NICE if players of aggressive, combat-oriented positions simply CHOSE not to attack significantly weaker positions. It would be the polite thing to do...and from a pure game "enjoyment" standpoint, is it really FUN to beat up on a much weaker opponent? Unfortunately, we cant depend on that...and in honesty, given at least the POSSIBILITY of a RP aspect of the game, some types of empires will DELIBERATELY attack weaker victims. It would be in their nature.

 

Perhaps a larger and more active contingent of NEUTRAL empires of various sizes would help this situation? More, and more useful advanced neutrals would give aggressors someone to attack without harming more peaceful players positions, and the more peaceful players can ally themselves with advanced neutrals to fend off thier own attackers.

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This is a real shame. One player is so obsessed with role playing that he can't for a moment step back and allow himself to be "human". He refuses to see what the other player has put into the game and decides his fun is to attack them, and destroy everything they've worked for over three years. The net result is the other player leaves, and this turns into just another computer run empire to attack, one of many sitting about in space in the game.

 

So where was the fun for the one player in all this? Well...

 

If the "fun" is the attacking, this could be done by going after any one of the computer run empires, and he has no reason to attack the player. So there is no reason to attack if this is the case. Hence attacking an active player must be part of the fun.

 

Well, if the "fun" is in fighting with an active player (move, counter-move, etc...), then the Sha has quite clearly said they do NOT want to participate in that. And despite tha, the Gjor attacked, forcing the Sha to follow through and quit the game when pressed. Clearly attacking a player to engage in a series of battles and trying to outthink them was not part of the fun.

 

Hmmm ... well, that leaves only a couple of things that could be considered fun .. but only for twisted individuals. Attacking an active player who can't well defend themselves -- I guess the "Fun" in this case must be the opportunity to beat on someone for some twisted reason, destroying everything they built, to somehow show their supperiority. This is supported by their statement that they invested hundreds of dollars into their position, which they believe gives them to right to act in the manner they so choose. IE.. they are basically stating their dollars spent on the game are superior to the other players, as they give no similar consideration to the other players time and money spent (I do not care what you spent, I spent "X" and will damn well do what I please).

 

I really do feel sorry for the Gjor player. If this is the way they act here.....

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1. I think it's a shame the big cat is dropping.

 

2. He doesn't have too, he could fight.

 

3. How is this the Bloody guy's fault?

 

4. Does Magus666 believe he can read minds?

 

5. I'd be distraught if my 1st empire was crushed, but it would have to be crushed for me to drop it now (I've spent hundreds of dollars as well).

 

6. RP is RP. If you want to have a Galactic Senate and sing "Kumbayah," go ahead, WHAPO, Starbars, and all the other somewhat RP players out there will carry on with whatever RP they're doing (Magus666, New Spartans HATE bugs).

 

7. Advanced neutrals?

 

8. I still think it's a shame the big cat is dropping.

 

9. Big cats have a natural advantage over blind, religious fanatics dripping with blood.

 

10. The big cat should fight.

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We off the Third Sifan Imperium are also saddened by news that the great Cat will no longer be with us. Sha'thar has been a great insperation to all those feline races out there as well as the rest of us, showing us the true joys that roleplaying your race can bring to both you and others.

 

Sha'thar you will be missed. :cheers:

 

Sir Smeg :cheers:

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