Overcoming Screens...

[cestvel]

I had one battle, where my ship would have fared better with lower FC than it had.

my BB with a FC of 6 met a fleet of 5 CA (technically advanced anyway). The BB managed inflicting damage up to medium on 4 of these. With and FC of 1 the BB would have killed 1 maybe 2.

 

At least his superior FC was totally wasted on my lowly BB

[Vince]

 

Not to be rude, but to say;

 

"that there ARE people who have forked out mega-real-world-bucks on research, who would in turn feel themselves swindled if others got it all effectively for nothing"

 

doesn't make any sense. Research is one area where everyone has an equal amount of output in this game. Everyone gets 25 RC's max, no exceptions. No one can pay more real world bucks in order to get more research output.

 

 

By "research", I think he's referrig to experimentation within the game, not the research that's generated by research centers. Stuff like building up large fleets to run mock battles, etc. That's what can cost real world bucks.

 

I think the point is that it would be a gross injustice to the players who have researched the necessary means to overcome a screen defense by freely giving any information to the community at large. These players have sacrificed researching other areas to obtain the information. TANSTAFL: "There Ain't No Such Thing As a Free Lunch" - they are no doubt behind the research curve in areas that those of you crying "Foul" have excelled at. RTG is absolutely correct in not revealing too much information - IF its that important to you - spend the time and RC's to RESEARCH!

 

Off the soap box and back to sidelines.

[Drasn]

This seems vaguely important ...

 

It certainly would have the 'DOH' factor.

 

There are some side effects of the Fighter and Drone Operations Options that are related to targeting, providing for further

differentiation between the choices, and not all of the FOO and DOO modifiers are identical. For example, Deep Strike is an

attempt to target rear area enemy ships if the opportunity presents itself

 

Just to add my grain of salt...

[Lord Deependra]

While sensors may have all sorts of effects on targetting, I don't think that would solve the real problem which is how to overcome large fleets of small ships. Assuming I can fit my best weapon onto a 1000 ton ship, surely I would be better off building 1000 x 1000 ton ships than building a million ton battleship.

In other words, don't build battleships, just build everthing as 1000 ton ships in DL 1. You would want some battleships to assault warp points but in regular battles, smaller and more would be better. There would still be all the inherant poblems of screen ships, but people have shown they are prepared to live with them.

 

Presumably then, the screen-busting technology does somthing other than alter the targetting. Perhaps enhanced tractor beams to capture/neutralise small vessels or a jamming system that interferes with enemy communication, giving them a combat penaly based on the number of ships they have.

[Prospective]

El Capitan,

 

I think you make a fair assumption that Breoghan may be referring to people who spent large sums of real world bucks building large fleets to run mock battles, etc. However, RTG provided us all with a Naval Combat Primer. Doesn't that document answer most of the questions about how the combat system works??? Doesn't it give away "secrets" that many people spent many dollars to obtain??? Never-the-less, this document was released to all and it put everyone on a level playing field regarding naval combat. Why are sensors exempt from this?

 

 

Vince,

 

The argument: "that it would be a gross injustice to the players who have researched the necessary means to overcome a screen defense by freely giving any information to the community at large" is not valid. I have not asked Pete to reveal any RESEARCH pre-requsites. Revealing that type of information WOULD be a gross injustice and Pete should not reveal that kind of information. I thought I have been clear, but your statement makes me see that I was not. To restate:

 

Pete, what role do sensors play (aside from being a defense against mines) in naval combat?

 

* Don't tell me about pre-requsites to research sensors. That would be inappropriate.

* Don't tell me about technology that will open if I research sensor technology. That would also be inappropriate.

* Do explain what role sensors play in fire control and ship targetting. Answering this reveals nothing beyond what was revealed about other technology (defense systems, computers, fighters/drones) in the naval combat primer.

[hobknob]

Speaking from the point of a veteran player with multiple positions and untold amounts of gaming dollars poured into this game, I like a few secrets and would indeed feel cheated if the oracle gave away the secret of this topic.

 

At this point whether I have found the secret or am just about to find it is lots of the fun. Having it handed to everybody on a silver platter takes that fun away.

 

At this point my enemies know not if I have it or not, or having it, have I chosen to implement it or not. I like it that way.

 

For those that are struggling to find the solution, good luck. If you don't find the elusive targeting fix then maybe higher FC, like 400-500 will be the answer, or perhaps a different approach.

 

For those that haven't been around as long as some of us, I would suggest letting your position and your research mature a bit. Maybe pick up a second or third position to try out different options. It is truly amazing what 9 positions can do when research is streamlined for the greater good. This would also help RTG's bottom line and that is not a bad thing either IMHO.

 

[Prospective]

Hobknob,

 

I forget that not everyone is a native speaker of english. I will restate my point.

 

I am not asking RTG to reveal research secrets.

 

I am asking for a more complete understanding of rules of the naval combat system. I do not understand the line of thought that say it's acceptable to reveal some of the rules to naval combat, but that some rules should be kept secret.

 

An analogy would be to play a game of chess and have your opponent tell you "I will tell you how the pawns, the knight and the bishop move, but in order to keep some element of mystery to chess, you will need to discover how to move the king, the queen and the rook on your own through experimentation". Pretty ridiculous concept isn't it?

 

I do believe that technology pre-requsites should never be revealed by RTG (even though I'd personally love to know all the secrets). That aspect of the game should remain a mystery for people to ponder and wonder about and if they have the means, to run many positions to discover more secrets to research.

 

However, basic game rules such as target selection and fire control should not be known only to vetern players who run multiple positions and spend untold amounts of gaming dollars to discover them. ALL players should be privy to basic game information.

[Vince]

The argument: "that it would be a gross injustice to the players who have researched the necessary means to overcome a screen defense by freely giving any information to the community at large" is not valid. I have not asked Pete to reveal any RESEARCH pre-requsites. ...........

 

* Do explain what role sensors play in fire control and ship targetting. Answering this reveals nothing beyond what was revealed about other technology (defense systems, computers, fighters/drones) in the naval combat primer.

 

I must disagree - your and WKE's requests to confirm if sensors play a role in ship targetting is an indirect request for Pete to give pre-requisites - even a simple reply of "yes they do affect targeting" will positively give you a starting path to research for the elusive "screen solution" which would not be appropriate.

 

This thread started as a healthy discussion of ideas; if you see one that you feel has merit, research it to see where it leads - post the results if you feel inclined to do so. I'm sure you would be happy to give up any advantages your empire would achieve by discovering information that is so hard to come by........

[sir smeg]

While sensors may have all sorts of effects on targetting, I don't think that would solve the real problem which is how to overcome large fleets of small ships. Assuming I can fit my best weapon onto a 1000 ton ship, surely I would be better off building 1000 x 1000 ton ships than building a million ton battleship.

In other words, don't build battleships, just build everthing as 1000 ton ships in DL 1. You would want some battleships to assault warp points but in regular battles, smaller and more would be better. There would still be all the inherant poblems of screen ships, but people have shown they are prepared to live with them.

 

Presumably then, the screen-busting technology does somthing other than alter the targetting. Perhaps enhanced tractor beams to capture/neutralise small vessels or a jamming system that interferes with enemy communication, giving them a combat penaly based on the number of ships they have.

 

I always thought that the solution to the screen fleet problem was a weapon that did a little bit of damage to every ship in your opponets fleet. This would give let you deal with large numbers of small ships, but would be more of a hinderence against one or two large ships.

 

As for the question of whether sensors will help with dealling with screens, I very much doubt it. From what has been observed with the sensor tech path they will take you up to some more varied forms of sensors, with at least one of them having a bridge rating, some of these will open up a more interesting tech path, but I have yet to see anything that can even be described as an offensive weapon.

 

Finnally, Pete has mentioned that the counter to the screen fleet, is a simialar tech level to NTWD, Mk 1 long range sensors can take longer to reaserch than the NTWD, so either Pete is misleading us on just how complex the counter is or sensors have either nothing or very little to do with it.

 

Sir Smeg

[Lord Deependra]

I always thought that the solution to the screen fleet problem was a weapon that did a little bit of damage to every ship in your opponets fleet. This would give let you deal with large numbers of small ships, but would be more of a hinderence against one or two large ships.

 

 

Hmm...sure are a lot of Mass Destruction Devices. If I wanted to deal damage over a wide area, a nuke would be a good place to start...

[Prospective]

Vince,

 

It is wrong for you or anyone to make the claim that I am indirectly asking for research pre-req's. I am not. Because sensors play a role in targeting during naval combat (Pete has confirmed this statement further back in this thread), ALL players should be aware how they actually function. This information should not be limited to those who have multiple setups or spend mega bucks experimenting.

 

Put it this way. Everyone starts the game with Mk 1 Computers and Mk 1 Short Range Sensors (check back to your initial setup if you have doubts). It's part of your basic setup. No one is excluded from that beginning technology. We all know how computers contribute to fire control ratings in naval combat. Why do we have that information? Because it a basic rule and it's function was made explicit in the naval combat primer. The exact same can be said of sensors. They are basic tech that everyone starts with. The difference is that the general player has no idea how they function.

[El Capitan]

Prospective,

 

Back a few pages ago you were content with Pete's final word on sensors and the thread went back to speculating about the screen solution. Now you've gone back on your statement and have started pestering Pete about sensors again. Go back and read WKE's post that slammed Pete for revealing what little info he did and then ask yourself "How likely is it that Pete will give out any more info". Not to be rude, but if you have any sense at all you will realize the answer is "When hell freezes over!".

 

Maybe the answer to your burning questions about sensors is this: The common, lower levels of sensors work a certain basic way, but it's not until you get to higher levels or to "more interesting" techs that open off of them that you see the added advanced abilities of sensors that may have been hinted about in the lower tech levels. For Pete to tell you how these advanced techs work, before you actually get the tech, would be revealing too much. If this is the case, or something similar to it, I can see why sensors would be the exception to the rest of the details he gave in the Naval Combat document.

 

No amount of pestering (or what you see as reasoning) is going to get Pete to say any more, especially after what WKE did. You need to give it a rest and move on. If you want to continue on your quest of trying to force Pete to say more on the subject, take it up with him personally in private emails.

[Vince]

El Capitan - well said! You communicated my point in a much clearer fashion.

 

Now let's go find another "dead horse" to ride.

[Prospective]

El Capitan,

 

This topic had waned but now that it's gotten interesting again so I am back. As far the probability of Pete answering questions, I would not place myself in a position to speak for him.

 

About WKE going off on Pete, part of running a company is to deal with satisfied as well as dissatisfied customers. As long as comments do not become personal attacks on Pete where is the harm?

 

You do make an excellent point when you say

 

"Maybe the answer to your burning questions about sensors is this: The common, lower levels of sensors work a certain basic way, but it's not until you get to higher levels or to "more interesting" techs that open off of them that you see the added advanced abilities of sensors that may have been hinted about in the lower tech levels."

 

Let's eliminate the 'Maybe" and get a general understanding as to how common, lower level sensors work in naval combat. Explain sensors with the exact same detail that was provided regarding computers and their role in naval combat, no more no less.

 

If certain advanced sensor functionality opens up as sensor tech is researched, THAT information should be revealed only to the person who has researched the tech, but a basic understanding of how sensors work in naval combat is a reasonable request.

 

As far as Pete speaking further on the subject, once again I do not presume to speak for Pete. Pete will do as Pete will do.

 

About taking this discussion private, addressed directly to Pete, it would be improper for Pete to provide an answer for my benefit. This kind of information needs to be provided to the entire player base, not to an individual.

[Octus Imperium]

I was re-reading Eternus's compendium, gleaned from the forums, and found this nugget from Pete. Here's a link to the thread.

 

Sensors

Sensors are essentially dual-purpose items: they act as defensive systems and supplement the fire control systems by spotting potential enemy vessels. They are not mandatory, but it’s probably a good idea to equip your warships with at least one Sensor.

 

It says the same thing in the Naval Combat primer. You know, it amazes me. RTG has provided detailed information on fire control and how legendary characters impact it, detailed information on weapons fire and how they degrade versus deploy locations, even detailed information on Drones versus CIDS and how losses are calculated (I was amazed when that was volunteered). But every time someone asks Pete to provide information about sensors, to clarify how sensors supplement fire control, or even asks simple Yes/No questions, he refuses to say anything. That is pure B.S. IMHO. Why in the HELL provide all of this other information, and then be quiet about how sensors supplement the fire control systems? It makes no freaking sense.

 

Perhaps Pete has devulged all he is able to without giving away the store. Perhaps this discussion has hit close to the mark regarding sensors and any further comments would remove the 'DOH' opportunity we all will be experiencing (if we haven't already). Just a thought.

 

Octus