Overcoming Screens...

[Kezar Stanyan]

...I was just joking around - Razor Wire, Advanced Consumer Goods, Advanced Plantfoods, Cow Catapults....all have been the butt end of jokes over the years.

 

What about the Mk I Probability Jump Drive, is that just joking around or is it real? Breoghan hinted it was not real. Can you confirm or deny?

[El Capitan]

He has never done that before...

 

 

He did it with transwarp drives and spinal mounts and I could probably think of others if I thought really hard.

 

Anyway, I do understand the frustration but I absolutely do not see any inconsistencies with the way Pete has responded to or delt with this issue. In fact, it seems to fit in perfectly with what we've seen from Pete over the years -- We don't hear much from him for a while when out of the blue a hot topic develops. People get a bit frustrated over finding a solution and he finally drops a couple of hints. I don't see what the big deal is and I wouldn't expect anything more or less from him. It seems right in character.

[WKE235]

Well, this issue isn't exactly a secret--there has been tons of discussion on it for quite a while. I was asked to provide some sort of comment, and I decided to do so. I've done the same on other issues, and probably will again in the future. Sometimes I give more info, sometimes less. Sometimes cryptic, sometimes I spell things out. I don't see anything particularly unique about this area. In the case of the specific comments I made a few posts back, I was just joking around - Razor Wire, Advanced Consumer Goods, Advanced Plantfoods, Cow Catapults....all have been the butt end of jokes over the years. Just a bit of levity in a Galaxy Gone Mad

 

No Pete. Back on August 24th in the Turns are in Thread, you posted

 

Turns are running, but I have to take one of my sons to a doctor's appointment. Letting the program grind through a massive batlte with many, many thousands of junk screens while I do that. Turns could come out late tonight, or tomorrow morning, depending on how many more such battles trigger later in the day. I'll admit.....I can't wait until more empires figure out how to get their fleets to ignore the 1000-ton screens and get to the meat of the battle instead. Takes forever to run these things

 

That in turn triggered this thread. Instead of merely mentioning turn progress, you decided to toss out that tech exists that will ignore screenies in a battle, something that would also reduce the long running battles as well. And I can't help but notice that this was mentioned only after the turns became so battle clogged thay take two days to run now.

[Prospective]

Yes, I'm back to comment despite my last post in this thread. This thread has gotten interesting again and I can't shut up as I'm sitting here waiting for my turn results to arrive.

 

First off, while it may seem to be case, I do not want to 'pile on' Pete. Except for the extreme lateness of recent turn processing I have not too much to complain about. This extreme lateness is my main motivation towards finding a 'solution' to the screen issue. I'm tired of waiting till late on Saturday night to get my turns back. If this solution will bring us back to a Friday night turn arrival time, I'd really like to know what it is. Besides, it's my personal opinion is that in a real naval combat situation any naval commander would evaluate the threat posed by enemy ships and make an intelligent decision which units were of a higher priority to eliminate, and not just blindly shoot at a 1kt unarmed screen which poses little threat vs targetting a serious threat.

 

My main gripe about this whole topic is that the ANZ's for the SR and LR sensors indicate that they are the "primary target acquisition" device during combat. Only the MR sensors make a statement regarding mines (see the ANZ's below).

 

All I want is to have an official statement from Pete that confirms or denies that the respective "X Range Sensor" ANZ's are accurate.

 

We all understand that sensors primary purpose IN COMBAT is as a defense to mines (despite the ANZ which doesn't mention mines for SR and LR sensors. This statement (plus the ANZ) indicates that there is also a secondary purpose IN COMBAT to sensors.

 

Before someone says that the secondary purpose is to open up other interesting technologies, understand that there is a difference between the naval combat system and the Research system.

 

So please Pete, shut me up on this topic for once and all, I'm tired of typing. Please make an official statement regarding the ANZ for the Mk ??? Short Range, Medium Range and Long Range Sensors. Is the ANZ accurate or inaccurate? Conclusions to your official statement can be drawn by the individual player.

 

 

Mk I Short Range Sensor: The Mk I Short Range Sensor is a first generation naval sensor system. It is a self-contained, multi-purpose unit capable of handling all routine navigational duties as well as serving as the primary target acquisition and fire control sensor system during combat. Accordingly, the system has a 360 ° field of vision and is equipped with the latest in sensor technology.

 

Mk I Medium Range Sensor: The Mk I Medium Range Sensor stretches the range of the Short Range Sensor, providing additional detection distance. Sensors are most effective as a defense against enemy mines.

 

Mk I Long Range Sensor: The Mk I Long Range Sensor is a self-contained, multi-purpose unit is capable of handling all routine navigational duties as well as serving as the primary target acquisition and fire control sensor system during combat. This system is designed primarily for use at longer ranges and is not as effective at shorter distances.

[RTGPete]

So please Pete, shut me up on this topic for once and all, I'm tired of typing. Please make an official statement regarding the ANZ for the Mk ??? Short Range, Medium Range and Long Range Sensors. Is the ANZ accurate or inaccurate? Conclusions to your official statement can be drawn by the individual player.

The ANZ's for those items are accurate.

[Prospective]

Thanks Pete.

 

[Octus Imperium]

Well, this issue isn't exactly a secret--there has been tons of discussion on it for quite a while. I was asked to provide some sort of comment, and I decided to do so. I've done the same on other issues, and probably will again in the future. Sometimes I give more info, sometimes less. Sometimes cryptic, sometimes I spell things out. I don't see anything particularly unique about this area. In the case of the specific comments I made a few posts back, I was just joking around - Razor Wire, Advanced Consumer Goods, Advanced Plantfoods, Cow Catapults....all have been the butt end of jokes over the years. Just a bit of levity in a Galaxy Gone Mad

 

Pete,

 

As you know, you can't win. Say something, and someone wishes you hadn't and someone else wishes you had. But long before now. Or in a different tone of 'voice'. Or with different words.

 

This is a healthy discussion and means people are passionate about this game. Good sign. Expressing their annoyance and backing it up with a logical defense, also a good sign. Someone else taking them to task for being annoyed and backing their argument up, another good sign. Someone saying I'm angry and I' taking my jacks and going home, bad sign (for them). Those people laeving actually improves the dialogue.

 

Now what REALLY hacks me off is the fact that mineral fertilizer isn't in this anti-screen technology, as far as I can see. Except for those interesting comments about cow catapults. Hmm, maybe there is a role for said fertilixer.... hmm again.

 

Octus

 

So please Pete, shut me up on this topic for once and all, I'm tired of typing. Please make an official statement regarding the ANZ for the Mk ??? Short Range, Medium Range and Long Range Sensors. Is the ANZ accurate or inaccurate? Conclusions to your official statement can be drawn by the individual player.

The ANZ's for those items are accurate.

 

Sigh.....

 

There you go again, making definitive statements. Or what appear to be definitive statements. Won't you ever learn.

 

Thanks for a great game, BTW.

 

Octus

[WKE235]

So please Pete, shut me up on this topic for once and all, I'm tired of typing. Please make an official statement regarding the ANZ for the Mk ??? Short Range, Medium Range and Long Range Sensors. Is the ANZ accurate or inaccurate? Conclusions to your official statement can be drawn by the individual player.

The ANZ's for those items are accurate.

 

Lets try this then. In the Naval Combat document it says "Space battles are considered to be fairly short range affairs when it comes to ship detection. Short, medium and long range sensors all function quite effectively in any naval engagement—the difference between them is primarily that of technology generation rather than distance ratings. Strategically, they have some differences when spotting alien ships, and some sensor types start at higher generations; this can make them more difficult to research at first, but might grant a higher top-end if a particular research tree is followed to conclusion. Within the context of a space battle, sensors are primarily defensive systems. A ship without any sensors at all can still fight and do well."

 

Question for Pete: Do Sensors alter or impact the odds of selecting which ship is fired on in combat?

 

Question for Pete: Do Sensors alter or impact the odds of globs of firepower hitting a target?

 

Finally I point out in the Combat document it says: Targets are selected by ship (orbiting installations and forts are considered ships for all purposes) and not by tonnage.

 

Question for Pete: Does a technology exist that alters this statement in the document so that tonnage is taken into account when selecting a ship to fire on?

 

Simple questions, asking for simple Y/N answers.

[Breoghan]

I could be wrong, but it looks like you're asking exactly the same question, just breaking it down into its component parts.

[Soerenjev]

No Pete. Back on August 24th in the Turns are in Thread, you posted

 

Turns are running, but I have to take one of my sons to a doctor's appointment. Letting the program grind through a massive batlte with many, many thousands of junk screens while I do that. Turns could come out late tonight, or tomorrow morning, depending on how many more such battles trigger later in the day. I'll admit.....I can't wait until more empires figure out how to get their fleets to ignore the 1000-ton screens and get to the meat of the battle instead. Takes forever to run these things

 

That in turn triggered this thread. Instead of merely mentioning turn progress, you decided to toss out that tech exists that will ignore screenies in a battle, something that would also reduce the long running battles as well. And I can't help but notice that this was mentioned only after the turns became so battle clogged thay take two days to run now.

 

I would like to remark that Pete never once used the word "Tech" in his posts, but he said "figure out" wich is something different.

[Sakarissa]

Very healthy discussion on the subject. However, in the interest to further stir the pot, please don't forget the following tech:

 

Mk I Mass Detector Sensor: Mass Detectors are extremely useful sensor systems that perform a dual purpose mission. The detection of enemy starships is of paramount importance, and it is very difficult for them to hide their very mass from the prying eyes of a MDS. Additionally, enemy weapons systems that rely upon Gravitonic effects can be countered somewhat should their mass-distorting properties be detected early enough. Mass Detector Sensors are more sensors than defensive systems, but they do come in handy for both purposes.

 

This might be an important tech in the Anti-Screen Strategy. If your ships can detect 10,000 1000 kton ships and one 5,000,000 kton ship behind them, then that might affect the firing solutions of your fleets. I think without Sensors all your fleets are seeing is 10,001 blips of the same size. You can guess that 1 is a huge one and the rest are screens but without mass readings on them, it would be hard to pick out the battleship hiding behind the squishies.

 

Sakarissa

The Circle

[RTGPete]

Doesn't seem wise for me to say much of anything else on this topic. I'm sure you'll figure it all out anyway. Great discussion, though.

[El Capitan]

Well, this issue isn't exactly a secret--there has been tons of discussion on it for quite a while. I was asked to provide some sort of comment, and I decided to do so. I've done the same on other issues, and probably will again in the future. Sometimes I give more info, sometimes less. Sometimes cryptic, sometimes I spell things out. I don't see anything particularly unique about this area. In the case of the specific comments I made a few posts back, I was just joking around - Razor Wire, Advanced Consumer Goods, Advanced Plantfoods, Cow Catapults....all have been the butt end of jokes over the years. Just a bit of levity in a Galaxy Gone Mad

 

No Pete. Back on August 24th in the Turns are in Thread, you posted

 

Turns are running, but I have to take one of my sons to a doctor's appointment. Letting the program grind through a massive batlte with many, many thousands of junk screens while I do that. Turns could come out late tonight, or tomorrow morning, depending on how many more such battles trigger later in the day. I'll admit.....I can't wait until more empires figure out how to get their fleets to ignore the 1000-ton screens and get to the meat of the battle instead. Takes forever to run these things

 

That in turn triggered this thread. Instead of merely mentioning turn progress, you decided to toss out that tech exists that will ignore screenies in a battle, something that would also reduce the long running battles as well. And I can't help but notice that this was mentioned only after the turns became so battle clogged thay take two days to run now.

 

 

I still don't see what your beef is. You admit that, in the past, Pete has mentioned there are other ways to deal with/defeat the screen tactic besides fire control. You admit that he has never said that fire control is the only way to deal with screens. These are definitive statements acknowledging that there are other technologies/strategies in the game for the purpose of dealing with large numbers of screens.

 

Simple question -- How is this different from Pete's current statement??? The only difference I see is that he used the word "ignore". Is that what's troubling you?

[Prospective]

Sakarissa,

 

Very good sir, very good. I think you are on to something here.

 

Problem: How will ship commanders differentiate between a 'junk' 1kton screen ship from a 'valuable' 100Mton warship?

 

Answer: Use MASS detectors!!!

 

Could the answer be more obvious? I know I'm experiencing that DOH moment that Pete mentioned. How about you? I wonder if this is the final 'holy grail' everyone's been searching for. I guess the only way is to test. If not these alone, perhaps higher level mass detectors will eventually open up even better sensor tech? Or perhaps if they are tied in to the advanced computers out there like holographic neural feed battle computers, maybe that will work.

 

Again, this is all theories but again, it seems quite plausible.

 

Also, it seems like Pete has backed out of the conversation now that the MD sensors have been mentioned. Not sure if that's coincidence or by design. All in all, I think that the first time I encounter any massive amounts of screen ships, I'll load my ships down with MD sensors picked up through EXPL to see what happens. I may even start research on that tech.

[cestvel]

I think the Mass Detectors are there for spotting cloaked ships.

 

But hey, maybe they have other uses as well.