Overcoming Screens...

[Lord Uriel]

............... That is pure B.S. IMHO. .................... It makes no freaking sense.

 

As can be said of the majority of your 800+ posts

 

 

Keep it clean people. Personal attacks should be limited to Ground Combat on player HWs.

 

 

 

Lord Uriel

[TErnest]

I forget that not everyone is a native speaker of english. I will restate my point.

 

Non-native speaker of English... You mean like some who fails to understand the word, "No." Or "I think it would unwise for me to comment further?"

 

I am not asking RTG to reveal research secrets.

 

No, you are asking RTG to reaveal a game secret that Pete clearly feals is best kept secret. Sorry, but I agree completely with Hobknob on this one.

 

I am asking for a more complete understanding of rules of the naval combat system. I do not understand the line of thought that say it's acceptable to reveal some of the rules to naval combat, but that some rules should be kept secret.

 

Pete has long stated that never wanted to publish a COMPLETE understanding of the combat system, for fear that the game would simply degenerate into an excercise in number cruching. I absolutely, 100% agree with Pete's judgement in this case. If anything, too much information about the combat system is currently available.

 

An analogy would be to play a game of chess and have your opponent tell you "I will tell you how the pawns, the knight and the bishop move, but in order to keep some element of mystery to chess, you will need to discover how to move the king, the queen and the rook on your own through experimentation". Pretty ridiculous concept isn't it?

 

For any "complete information" game, such as chess, yes it would be. SNROTE, however, is nearly as far away from "complete information" as one can get. No one knows the details on all the techs available. And can anyone see any more than a tiny fraction of 1% of the "game board?" I am afraid that this particular analogy is inadiquate for our game.

 

However, basic game rules such as target selection and fire control should not be known only to vetern players who run multiple positions and spend untold amounts of gaming dollars to discover them. ALL players should be privy to basic game information.

 

Here I would agree with you. Basic rules should be universally available. I think it is difficult to argue, however, that any rule that one can successfully play without knowledge of for five years (as is the case with most reading this post) qualifies as "basic."

 

Sorry if this came off as a bit harsh. I really do think that in this case, you are barking up the wrong tree... in the wrong forest... on the wrong planet.

 

TErnest

[EEOC]

It can be frustrating. We just got Ringworld but cannot build the tech. It's a horizon and requires other techs. It does give an inkling though.

[El Capitan]

El Capitan,

 

This topic had waned but now that it's gotten interesting again so I am back. As far the probability of Pete answering questions, I would not place myself in a position to speak for him.

 

The interesing topic was supposed to be about tossing around ideas for a screen solution, but you keep pressing the issue of the role of sensors -- after you said you were content with Pete's final answer. You nor I need to speak for Pete. He said it himself. No more info on sensors.

 

About WKE going off on Pete, part of running a company is to deal with satisfied as well as dissatisfied customers. As long as comments do not become personal attacks on Pete where is the harm?

 

The harm is that you alienate Pete. Just because he's running a business doesn't mean he's not human or doesn't have feelings.

 

If you don't trust Pete enough to to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's withholding this info for a damned good reason, then I question why you would continute to play the game at all. It's one thing to ask questions and seek clarification, but it's quite another to push an issue well beyond what's reasonable considering that Pete has made it quite clear that he has said all he is going to say on the subject.

 

I trust that Pete has a good reason for not revealing any more than he has. And if he were to reveal too much, the outrage would pale in comparison to WKE's rant. Pete knows this game inside and out and from front to back. We don't. Being the all knowing Game Master, he know's what's best for this game more than anyone else. If you can't deal with that, find another game to play.

 

 

Explain sensors with the exact same detail that was provided regarding computers and their role in naval combat, no more no less.

 

This is just my opinion and an example that might explain the lack of info in the Naval Combat document.

 

The basic (primary) function of sensors in naval combat is to counter mines. That's it. The stuff about target aquisition does not involve their basic function and at the lower levels of sensor technology is so minute as to not have an actual effect or even nonexistant. This additional info was put in the ANZ to suggest what the technology line might be capable of.

 

If certain advanced sensor functionality opens up as sensor tech is researched, THAT information should be revealed only to the person who has researched the tech, but a basic understanding of how sensors work in naval combat is a reasonable request.

 

We have been given a basic understanding of how sensors work in naval combat. Their Primary function is to counter mines. I think it's become obvious that anything beyond that is more than basic and is likely to be revealed as you push down that branch of the tech tree, and is why Pete won't reveal it.

 

 

As far as Pete speaking further on the subject, once again I do not presume to speak for Pete. Pete will do as Pete will do.

 

And again, Pete has made it perfectly clear that he has no more to say on the subject. We might have been in store for a few more hints, but not after WKE's rant.

 

About taking this discussion private, addressed directly to Pete, it would be improper for Pete to provide an answer for my benefit. This kind of information needs to be provided to the entire player base, not to an individual.

 

 

I wouldn't expect Pete to give just you the answer. My point is, if you want to continue to press him to release more info, do it in private. I think a bunch of us are tired of seeing it on the board. If you convince him to release more info, he can then post it on the board.

[WKE235]

............... That is pure B.S. IMHO. .................... It makes no freaking sense.

As can be said of the majority of your 800+ posts

Keep it clean people. Personal attacks should be limited to Ground Combat on player HWs.

Lord Uriel

 

You forgot to mention. Personal attacks should be limited to Politcal ads as well. Can't have a good campaign without calling someone's spouse a "trophy wife" for example.

 

Yep, I do sometimes rant on and on on a topic. When I believe in something I will push out my thoughts and any information I have to support that position. I will stand on my soap box and yammer on and on to get something to change to what I feel is right. Raise hands if any of you remember my posts over Pete's rules on letting folks trade empires.

 

Despite the statements of some here, Pete is merely human. Like all of us, he is bound to make mistakes. And with a game as complex as this, he will screw-up on some decisions or actions. If anything, his overriding knowledge of everything can blind him to what should be done and what will happen. I bet even Pete is surpised by people building fleets of 20K, 30K, even 40K screen ships. Given his knowledge of sensors and related topics, he probably never thought it would get that bad. Remember he has mentioned the solution is right there in front of people yet hard to see. But his perception of the game and techs is filtered through his vast game knowledge, so he is essentially blinded by knowledge. How Pete sees the game, tech paths and other items is completely different from how players see the game, and it will always be completely different. So something obvious to him is as obvious as mud to the players.

 

And lets not forget that no matter how bright the GM in building a game, once you get lots of players in it they will find every nook and crany to play it in ways even the GM never imagined. From discovering dropping huge amounts of ICE-1 could greatly benefit a worlds resources (requiring a code tweak to downgrade the effect), to assiging spies to players colony worlds with little defenses, giving you complete random access to any order in that empire (oops), to capturing ships (more code changes), there are numerous examples in this game where how the game was built based on what the GM thought would work turned out wrong and needed to be changed or corrected. No one is perfect.

 

Pete has done a very good job of correcting things once uncovered, to keep this game running smoothly. He has responded well to players, and is actively working on ways to keep improving the game. But when something is wrong (like not providing basic information on sensors like has been done for every other ship board item), I have always felt we need to call him on it. It is always up to Pete to decide on what to do or how to respond to such. And I, as always, will flap my lips until convinced nothing further will happen on it.

[TErnest]

Pete has done a very good job of correcting things once uncovered, to keep this game running smoothly. He has responded well to players, and is actively working on ways to keep improving the game. But when something is wrong (like not providing basic information on sensors like has been done for every other ship board item), I have always felt we need to call him on it. It is always up to Pete to decide on what to do or how to respond to such. And I, as always, will flap my lips until convinced nothing further will happen on it.

 

WKE,

 

You certainly have the right to voice your opinions here. (Heck, that's what this forum is for, right?)

 

As for my opinion, well...

I have always discounted the opinions of those who disagreed with decisions of juries operating within courts of law. Not because I believe that a jury is incapable of error, (juries are made up of human beings, after all) but because the jury was exposed to all the facts presented in court, while anyone else who might offer an opinion, invariably, only has some subset of that information.

 

As you, yourself point out, Pete has a far more complete view of the game than any of us, including you. Granted, he has made some errors (cursed nature of human beings!) but all in all, his general track record has given very little reason to doubt his overall judgement about SNROTE.

 

He may well be in error here, once again. Or you may be. Just keep in mind...

 

The race may not always go to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. Or, for that matter, the truth to the learned. But that is DEFINATELY where one should place one's bets!

 

TErnest

[TErnest]

From discovering dropping huge amounts of ICE-1 could greatly benefit a worlds resources (requiring a code tweak to downgrade the effect), to assiging spies to players colony worlds with little defenses, giving you complete random access to any order in that empire (oops), to capturing ships (more code changes), there are numerous examples in this game where how the game was built based on what the GM thought would work turned out wrong and needed to be changed or corrected. No one is perfect.

 

One more thing I would like to point out, WKE.

 

I agree with you that much of what you listed above represents some of Pete's greatest errors. However, all of these were detected, and corrected, by Pete with little or no input from the players. While major shake-ups within the player base on rules issues have seldom resulted in any major changes at all. Just the occasional very minor tweek, or reassurance from Pete that the answer to everyone's questions already resides within the game system.

 

It seems to me that Pete is more than capable of monitoring the progress of his game. Of detecting when and where the game flow begins to drift away from his vision. And of correcting the course of the game, even before most players notice that there is a problem.

 

TErnest

[Laserwolf]

I will stand on my soap box and yammer on and on to get something to change to what I feel is right. Raise hands if any of you remember my posts over Pete's rules on letting folks trade empires.

 

We remember and we see that you have now taken full advantage of the empire trading yourself. Clearly your "soap box convictions" are insufficient to stop you from taking advantage of a rule you do not support.

[Kurassier]

First let me say that my main interest in eliminating screens IS TO GET MY RESULTS EARLIER! but that desire is overidden by the knowledge of having a tactical advantage over my enemies (currently only those Bovines, for which we developed the Cowtalpult line of weaponry) who have yet to experience, as Pete says, that Doh! moment.

I remember on the 3rd or 4th turn finding an Antimatter Transwarp Drive! It was quickly determined by my scientists that this tech would alter space travel as we knew it. A Doh! moment if you will. I made NO comments on this until after Transwarp Drives became common knowledge. I'm sure I'm not the only one this happened to. There have been other such moments, whether through EXPL or normal research. I for one have enjoyed this part of the game, the search, the quest, etc. I do not want Pete to reveal parts of the game until I find them for myself. ie be patient young padawah.

That being said, make sure those thirsty warriors stop as often as possible at their local StarBars.

[hobknob]

Hobknob,

 

An analogy would be to play a game of chess and have your opponent tell you "I will tell you how the pawns, the knight and the bishop move, but in order to keep some element of mystery to chess, you will need to discover how to move the king, the queen and the rook on your own through experimentation". Pretty ridiculous concept isn't it?

 

 

Your analogy is completely accurate, but your conclusion is backwards. If you were not give the functions of the Rook, Queen and King then you have no idea how they functioned and you would not expect to know since the information was not given.. That is exactly the way Supernova is intended to operate. We were never intended to have all of the information, rather we were expected to gain experience and thereby figure out how things work.

 

Now that I have the experience and have figured out how many things work I would prefer that the information not be given away.

 

We have been give a lot of information on how the combat system works. We know the RULES. What we don't know is how different technologies, lifeform choices, ship system combinations etc., etc., work to influence the application of the rules. These bits of information all are to be found through experimentation, research, intuition etc., but should not include the GM telling us what they are.

 

It should be enough that Pete has stated that there is a solution to the screen targeting issue. Now go find it.

 

[WKE235]

I will stand on my soap box and yammer on and on to get something to change to what I feel is right. Raise hands if any of you remember my posts over Pete's rules on letting folks trade empires.

We remember and we see that you have now taken full advantage of the empire trading yourself. Clearly your "soap box convictions" are insufficient to stop you from taking advantage of a rule you do not support.

 

Of course. I spoke up, I discussed, I ranted, I pleaded .. but the rule by RTG did not change. As I said, I'll keep up the jabber until I am convinced "X" will not change. And while my arguements stand still as to why allowing such changes is bad for the game, well, RTG has decided that "X" is the rule. So while I may think the game would be better without that ability to flip planets, I'm afraid the old rule of if you can't beat'em, join'em comes into play. I would have been a fool not to take advantage of the same item which you tried to use, in order to reverse your fortunes.

[TErnest]

I will stand on my soap box and yammer on and on to get something to change to what I feel is right. Raise hands if any of you remember my posts over Pete's rules on letting folks trade empires.

We remember and we see that you have now taken full advantage of the empire trading yourself. Clearly your "soap box convictions" are insufficient to stop you from taking advantage of a rule you do not support.

 

Of course. I spoke up, I discussed, I ranted, I pleaded .. but the rule by RTG did not change. As I said, I'll keep up the jabber until I am convinced "X" will not change. And while my arguements stand still as to why allowing such changes is bad for the game, well, RTG has decided that "X" is the rule. So while I may think the game would be better without that ability to flip planets, I'm afraid the old rule of if you can't beat'em, join'em comes into play. I would have been a fool not to take advantage of the same item which you tried to use, in order to reverse your fortunes.

 

 

Bravo, WKE! Could not have said it better, myself.

 

Laserwolf, WKE's complaints have always been a matter of game asthetics, not moral rectitude. So his behavior makes him an intelligent player, not a hypocrite!

 

TErnest

[Prospective]

Hobknob,

 

I apologize for getting so vehement in my continued posts as to question your command of the english language. Your posts are always clear and concise. I overstepped the bounds and got personal with that comment.

 

I understand your point of wanting to keep mystery in the game. My belief is that the mystery should not be about discovery of basic rules. A better analogy to have used in my post would have been a game like Starfire. I don't know if you ever played Starfire but the rules (at least in later versions) were were quite extensive and explained how combat functioned. The challenge of the game was not to understand HOW to play. The challenge was THE PLAY between you and your opponent(s). My take is that SN has taken a game with many similarities to Starfire and has added 'mystery' to the game through the unknown (to us players) technology tree as well as the mystery of discovering other players through exploration and surveying.

 

Personally I think that RTG has a wonderful game but that the rules they provided were extremely poor bordering on useless in some instances (diplomacy for one). RTG must have realized this and published the 'upgrades', most recently the Naval Combat Primer. That document (in my opinion) was awesome in that it gave ALL players (veterns and noobs alike) the ability to understand the rules. It helped to make the game one where a PLAYERS ABILITY to think and strategize are the most important aspect. It helped to minimize the case where the game becomes one of running multiple setups just so you can test to understand the rules of the game.

 

I am by no means poor but I am not independently wealthy with unlimited amounts of cash to run many empires just to discover how the rules work. I want to pay to PLAY the game, not pay to understand the rules.

[Lord Deependra]

I don't know if this is relevant, but I had a exploration hit on Mk II Flag Bridge technology this turn. Has anyone come across this before?

[Locklyn]

Never ever seen that one pop up before, and we've had A LOT of expl hits. Might be recently added to the tech base or repaired

 

/Locklyn