Multiple RC Penalty to Tech Advancement

[WKE235]

Eternus

 

I agree, we knew there would be diminishing returns on multiple RC's. But I do not think anyone thought it would be to the level that has been seen.

 

Also, I believe the research tree is big enough to allow for faster research. People will still have to make research choices. The tree is huge, bigger than I've ever seen. My best guesstimate (since we know nothing about the costs of higher level techs yet) is someone with maxed out research bonuses researching at 1 RC per turn on 25 different techs (to maximize overall research) might be able to research every tech in 40 years time. Of course I think my estimates of higher level tech costs could be to low .. so add another 20 years or so. SO .. even at 3x the speed, it would still take 20 years to research it all!

 

As for flying blind up the research tree, turn after turn more is discovered. The change in explores so we can find stuff, take it to a science center, and analyze it is already filling in gaps on the tree. Large cooperative organizations will have a lot of the lower levels of the tree filled in very quickly (we hope). Of course the secrets to new installations and really advanced techs will still elude us (just what the heck is needed for building Dyson Spheres???). And this is the real killer.

 

What I mean is, lets say research is supposed to be limited so as to force players to be very selective in the research, to specialize so to speak (and trade to others for other techs). But how are we supposed to specialize when we have no idea how to get from point A to point B in the research tree? I would LOVE to work with another player and they work on shielding, I work on engines, another on weapons, etcetera... But I can't do that because none of us know how to get from A to B. What leads to newer techs doesn't not always match what you might think it should be. And if you are missing that one item on the tech path .. *POOF* .. you will never see that item appear for potentially researching. You won't even know it's there. If you're part of a group lucky enough to have found one item and analyzed, great. Otherwise you are out of luck. And until then, blind as a bat research wise.

 

And lets not forget that ground techs cannot be traded, nor can installations. Which means it is even more difficult to specialize or be selective in your research. You need improved installations like mines or industry or refineries to compete in the game economically so you have to research those. You might be able to get away with not exploring the wonders of Helicopters or Heavy Trucks or Heavy Machineguns (living with troops that would have trouble beating up a butterfly) .. but you need those economic improvements.

 

All in all, I believe the whole area of research in the game needs to be closely reexamined, as well as what techs can / cannot be traded.

[Clan Elder 'Keen]

What I like about the diminishing returns are threefold:

 

1) We are forced to make research choices. There is no perfect cookie cutter design out there. It promotes diversity amongst empires.

 

2) The diversity and slower research pace encourages trade

 

3) The diversity and slower research pace allows "younger" empires to remain a factor in overall galactic balance

 

We can't - and shouldn't - be able to research it all (and I know thats not your aim...but imagine a game with 3x the speed in research....)

I think you are somewhat confusing research pace with diminsihing returns in your arguments.

 

1) Steep diminishing returns encourages a shotgun approach to technology. If the penalty curve was reduced, I actually think that would result in more diversity among empires. For then it would be feasible to put a couple research centers on each of your favorite projects and truely become a specialist. With the current system most people are dragging all of the horizon techs upward at the same pace and roughly hitting the same milestones concurrently.

 

2) Again, diminishing returns has the opposite impact. If it was efficient for empires to put multiple research centers on projects and become specialists, there would be more trade options. Instead the shotgun approach of 25 different projects is tending to build in self-sufficiency.

 

3) A shallower diminishing return penalty would allow newer empires to quickly compete in narrow focused fields. As it is, the broad research approach will tend to protect the more advanced empires as there is little time for reaction. After all, consider how hard it will be to develop a counter to an alien weapon technology when it takes 10+ turns with a single research center.

[ShadowKitsune]

Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, but doesn't diminishing returns slow down the already slow research speed (saved points not withstanding)?

 

If there was no diminishing return, you could get the same amount researched in the same amount of time, just in a more customized order.

 

For example - Let's assume that all 3rd Generation technologies take 25 turns to research using just 1 Research Center. One extreme would be 25 Technologies being researched concurrently with 1 RC each. The other extreme would be 1 Technology being researched with all 25 RCs. Each extreme achieves 25 3rd Generation technologies in 25 Turns. The 1x25 plan gets you the single tech breakthrough each turn, that you can utilize at that time. The 25x1 plan gives you a monster boost on turn 25. Slow retool/refit over time v. one massive retool/refit. Of course, you could mix & match to your little sunflower stamen's content - 5 Techs w/ 5 RCs each, 2 Techs w/ 10 each + 5 Techs w/ 1 each, etc.

 

Since we still don't know what the research costs are, there is potential for 'wasted' research. Atomic Cattle Prods take 5 turns at 1 RC, but you assign 6 RCs to it. You achieve Atomic Cattle Prods in one turn, but you wasted an RC. Alternatively, you could assign 5 RCs to it, but one of your Scientists achieves a Breakthrough in Atomic Cattle Prods; you again wasted an RC (or two).

 

This doesn't actually speed up anything over the long haul. It just lets all of your RCs operate at or near 100% effeciency, regardless, plus it simplifies a calculation in the SN:ROTE program.

[Laserwolf]

Anyone who has taken the opportunity to sit and dream of how they would change their empire if they were able to start over will tell you:

 

The first 6 months of research choices looks remarkable similar for every new empire design.

 

This is not empire research diversity. THere is so much basic tech advancement that just makes too much proactical sense to research that you are left with a very few "disposable RC's" available to explore the tech tree.

 

It becomes nearly a given that in order to not nail yourself badly, a new player must snuggle up to a Grimloid and beg to see their research tree. At only the cost of a copy of their turn, this might seem to be a good deal.

 

Combining severe diminishment with unknown tech tree is rough. If the first 6 generations were public knowledge, then specific paths could be plotted by individual empires and the diversity desired would become reality. As it is, becasue 4th Gen is all we can get with SRP, generalized research efforts to known tech advancements brings empires back to looking alot like each other.

 

Similarly, imagine what the effect on the universe would be if, 2 turns after it was discovered, intergalactic spies revealed to the everyone the ANZ for the item. If it were particularly cool/powerful, would empires change their RC settings to run after it immediately? A couple might, if it fit their imagination of theie empire's future. Most would likely make a note of it and pick it up on the way if their paths came near it.

 

What if the first 5 RC slots became 1-slot enabled? Then we could actually make meaningful progress on the first few ranks of the tree to get a feel for where our future's could go if we took a specific path. Because once SRP is gone, tech advancements nearly shut down. One can only hope that they guessed right.

 

I suppose there are empires that are not using SRP to go straight to 2nd Gen Ind Sci and improved Ind Complexes once they know the path, but why? Would they instead funnel SRP into an unknown path and risk the a 50 turn delay of this great advance once SRP are gone? Brainiac mules set-up for this purpose would, but not an empire seeking long-term viability.

 

Science Advisor: Your Grace, we know how to make 200km Spinal Asteroid throwers, but your engineers cannot get the plasics right and even if they could, the economy must focus on only this for the next few months to make one.

[EternusIV]

 

I thought all of your responses were awesome, LOL

 

There are some good arguments in there for speeding it up.

 

BUT

 

Complete hypothetical --- if RTG were to improve the research pace....how would you suggest they implement the change?

[hobknob]

It is pointless to speculate about changing research since there is no way to change it now. To do so would alienate all current players and positions or cause a massive restart.

 

If you didn't have diminishing returns on research then you wouldn't have any wasted research. As it is no research is ever wasted. It is all spent as directed and you base your decisions on the value of the item you are researching. If you don't want to spend multiple RC's you aren't forced to except by your own ideas of need/greed.

 

About the only way that research can be changed at this point without upsetting the entire balance of things is to adjust the amount and frequency of scientist actions and the frequency and benefit of exploration actions. JMHO

 

Research is what it is and isn't supposed to rule the game. To increase the pace just make it that much more important and the game devolves into a tech research war.

[WKE235]

I disagree (of course). Research has already been changed several times in the game by RTG. First by placing diminishing returns on what you get from multiple explores to discourage exploring the game to death. Next by adding / changing the ability to find items in the explores as opposed to points towards research (quite frankly, I was hoping the finds would be for advanced techs ... finding 10 colony beacons or 7000 Fuel is not my idea of a useful explore result).

 

In addition, there is ample evidence that something was changed research wise in the first 10 turns of the game and no one was told (or more frightening, perhaps no one realized it changed as some other issue was fixed?). Numerous examples exist of research once costing 10 turns at one RC per turn for maxed research races now costing similar newer races only 8 turns.

 

Look at the other changes made in the game. The ability to probe warp points was adjusted (due to a bug .. but imagine the game and all the contacts we would have if this had been left as it was). New orders and features have been added to the game which have greatly enhanced it. If anything can be said about SN: ROTE, it is changing, growing, and evolving. SO, changing research would fit well within the game. People will adjust to faster research or a less demanding reduction for multiple RC's. And it will not upset the balance of everything.

 

As to your comment about no research being wasted, I (and I believe many others) would have to disagree. A 50%+ reduction for each additional RC in a set of multiple RC's is a lot of waste.

[Clan Elder 'Keen]

Changing the rate of diminishing returns on multiple research centers could certainly be done now if it is deemed desirable. Since everyone has been operating under the same rules, it has been and will continue to be a level playing field.

[Sakarissa]

If they change the Diminishing Returns formula to a more favorable model I, for one, wouldn't mind one bit. However, since I doubt they will do that I would settle for knowing what the actual rate of diminishing returns is so I can better plan my research priorities.

 

Sakarissa

[Laserwolf]

How about this:

 

Publish for all to see the first 3 or 4 generations of tech tree.

 

Now you are much less likely to "waste" your precious early research efforts and SRP on false logic and wild guesses.

 

then tune back the RC required for 5th+ gen stuff (since no one has it anyway)

[WKE235]

I also would like to see the diminishing returns formula. I have a predictive model that seems to work .. but having the exact formula would be better.

 

As for releasing all the tech trees .. I would support that. But I believe many in the big research sharing groups like GSL and ISIS would not. Heck, they've spent a lot of time pooling information which is classified as secret, not sharing it with the rest of the game players specifically because knowing what they know gives them advantages in the game. I you knew how to make advanced warp engines or high powered weapons or improved mines of various types ... would you tell everyone?? Having this information be secret was placed in the game and has dictated how the various groups have formed. I suspect the groups would be very upset if the trees were released now (except for me of course).

 

One thing this points out ... I you are NOT a member of a big research sharing group like ISIS or GSL or whatever the third big one is ... you WILL be left behind in the game, you will be at a disadvantage. You'll have to trust to information somehow being released by other independents or by leaks in the big three or blind luck on your part. You should join a group now, or risk being an ingrediant in the Gremloid version of Mulligan Stew.

[Azuth]

One thing this points out ... I you are NOT a member of a big research sharing group like ISIS or GSL or whatever the third big one is ... you WILL be left behind in the game, you will be at a disadvantage. You'll have to trust to information somehow being released by other independents or by leaks in the big three or blind luck on your part. You should join a group now, or risk being an ingrediant in the Gremloid version of Mulligan Stew.

 

Oh well, I'll just take my chances and rely on skill, luck and espionage.

[MadMartinB]

I know the path to better Industrial Output, better Ics etc.. and I am not going there...Weapons, Weapons and more weapons!

[Laserwolf]

Perhaps this is the place where the madness of your namesake comes to light...

[Ixitixl]

Personally, I enjoy the mystery of the tech tree. I do not belong to any organization that shares it's technological secrets with others such as ISIS, or GSL. And when I have finished researching a new technology, I take great pleasure in seeing what lies next.

 

I have only been in the game for over 6 months now, and so far the only frustration with research is that I have not discovered some tech that now one has discovered yet. I remember when the Nuclear Transwarp Drive was first mentioned on the board, and all the talk it stirred.

 

So far I have been too busy with researching all the basic tech to chase anything exotic. But who knows, perhaps in a couple of years I can post that I have unravelled the secrets to the Dyson Sphere Technology... Although, I do think that it will take more than a couple of years to work that one out. :lol: