Out There...

[octagon999]

Plus there are situations that only a human can handle, all the AI in the world just not able to comprehend the best path.

 

I'm saddened that an entire generation has been cheated out of meaningful, MANNED, space exploration. I was so hopeful after the moon landings, and really, what has been done since?

 

And the money was used for what, exactly?

 

I will probably die now, before we make the next great leap, if we ever do, and I resent the bean-counters and vote-buyers who are responsible.

 

Bitterly,

Tom

[AKO]

Lugal,

It would be good if the US would use less resources, but I would not call it a trickle down effect. I would call it a "catch-up" effect, since many countries are much more efficient than the US. Western Europe has an energy consumption per capita of less than a third than the USA.

Kind regards, André

[ShadowKitsune]

Of course, if the USA actually was more frugal as a country there would be economic chaos for a while -- being that (as a nation) we're #1 when it comes to consumption. If we consumed less, we'd require less and less would need to be made and therefore less workers would be required to make it.

 

Having worked in Africa for a multinational oil venture, it isn't just Alaska that could use a Natural Gas infrastructure. We burned off a LOT of gas, that was even after re-using as much as we could for 'gas lift' of the oil. <sigh> It was kind of depressing to think about from a wasted energy standpoint.

 

Then again, we have had recycling technology for years and still hardly use it as well as we could. But this is getting way off of the original thread ...

[MacBeth]

#1: re: " I do remember reading in high school that the whole worlds population could fit in California. It would be a little cramped, but they would fit." (Lugal)

 

I believe it wouldn't even take California. If you elevator-pack people, and I remember correctly, we could all stand on Zanzibar. That is my recollection of thesis behind the title of John Brunner's book, STAND ON ZANZIBAR. (Do sci-fi fans read that anymore?)

 

#2: But to get back on the original thread:

I get goosebumps when I open my morning paper to see pictures almost live from Mars. That is just so amazing.

 

--Russ

[The Boo Consulate]

Military missions should be handled by the DOD with a new Space Corps, preferably organized under the Department of the Navy...

 

Aww, Shane, I was really liking what you had to say until the Navy part!

 

--Paul

Paul,

 

I have done a bit of research into this. A separate force may well be the solution to the turf war problem. Institutionally, however, I fear that the Air Force is too tied to the ELV concept and that has as much to do with the military industrial complex as it does with the fact that the air force o is tasked to fly aerial missions and launch ICBMs. That is certainly relevant. My understanding of Space Command is that in practice it is a joint integrated outfit. Each service has its own command, but NORAD is now integrated. I may be wrong here, but I think I have read that somewhere. The reason I suggest the Dept. of the Navy is because it saves money by not creating a separate cabnet level department, and the Navy has both flotila and air warfare experience. Space is unique in that it combines the doctrinal elements of both dogfighting and submarine warfare. The navy has this paradigmatic approach in house, so to speak. Then again, I see no reaon why that sort of hybrid warfighting doctrine and culture could not also be obtained by using a special ops approach and pooling talent from all of the services.

[The Boo Consulate]

4) The Outer Space Treaty signed by the UN in 1967 still holds true. "The Outer Space Treaty contains an undertaking not to place in orbit around the Earth, install on the moon or any other celestial body, or otherwise station in outer space, nuclear or any other weapons of mass destruction. It limits the use of the moon and other celestial bodies exclusively to peaceful purposes and expressly prohibits their use for establishing military bases, installation, or fortifications; testing weapons of any kind; or conducting military maneuvers."

OOC:

Yeah. International Space Law has some real problems for private colonization efforts. Right now the whole corpus of law is geared toward recognizing only nation states as actors. Governments are basically vicariously liable for the harm caused by spacecraft and astronauts launching under their flag. The ban on weapons in space made since during the cold war and it was basically a way for Eisenhower to avoid a true military space race. It makes little sense now. We will never have a robust space economy with out some mechanism to protect economic interests. I think the Greens are the folks who perpetuate this area of the law because of their general fear of nuclear energy. The ABM treaty is the big problem, even more than the Outer Space Treaty. As for mining, that will work itself out. I have done some scholarship in this area and there are ways to make money even within the context of the Moon Treaty. It will just take a little finese.

 

I am interested in the power idea you mentioned, by the way:-)

 

Shane

[The Boo Consulate]

Go figure : people playing a space-based PBeM game with fascinating viewpoints and solid feelings about the issues about space exploration.

 

Wouldn't it be cool if we heard these topics being discussed more often within mainstream society?

 

One could only hope that some more serious education and awareness on these issues would liven the debate. In my opinion, any discussion is better than none at all.

 

I hope that the human race succeeds wnough with the space program to at least present the opportunity to rename a star to something more personal like "Julie" But I can attest to the seemingly-ostrich-like stargazing community: they are trying their best with what little resources they have.

Well said!. I wish it were more of an issue for public debate myself. For those who are interested there is a group called ProSpace.com that lobbies the US Congress on space issues. Their approach is on the Libertarian side, but they it still might be interesting for folks of different political view points who are nevertheless concerned about space issues.

[The Boo Consulate]

3 Environmentaly, isn't it better to have several solar power satalites and dish farms than to stripmine the planet for coal? wouln't it be more envirenmetally friendly to mine and haul a few million tons of Iron from a lifeless asteriod than to harm the local environment with a pit mine? the mining of space and the utilization of ihe resources in local or near space is far and away the more envirnmentaly friendly option. further we are many years away from automated Mining operations. mines mean people.

Gary

 

I think you are right on here. If we spent $80 billion to develop the Earth Moon System to the point where ET mineral extraction and power generation were feasible we would benefit tremendously, and on many levels. Not only would we wean ourselves from dirty hydrocarbon based fuels but we would also stop stripmining. The US, for instance, is economically speaking out of Aluminium. We import many of the metals we need to maintain technological civilization. It is always cheaper in terms of energy to go 'down" than up. If we make the investment needed in building up the on-orbit infrastructure it will pay off, I am very confident of this.

 

I'd love to see a New Deal style Mass Infrastructure and job program that puts visionaries and engineers to work building up an Earth-Moon economy. These would be high paying jobs and only the Post-Industrial societies can do it. These are jobs that economically we would have a competetive advantage in cultivating. Instead of laying off the steel workers so they can work at McDonalds, lets build a Space Hilton so yupies can pay top doller to have sex in space.

 

 

just my two cents,

Shane

[EternusIV]

The hottest idea for power stuff

 

I'm taking a slight risk in sharing this stuff for certain patent rights....but its in the process of being protected nonetheless. (My job and current studies exposed me to this in a rather synchronistic fashion so I'm becoming more involved. My understanding is that the idea has been around ever since they realized that large solar plates being dragged into the atmosphere wouldn't work. Most of the credit belongs to the obscure segment of the scientific community that gets the least amount of hype: the atmospheric scientists!! Another note-- if it wasn't for the damn hole in the ozone layer, we might not have ever considered this -- ironic, eh?)

 

 

 

VERY large photon plate/disc receptors at the base of a very large 'vaccum-funnel'

 

The 'vacuum-funnel' is the tricky part. We basically 'slice' a hole through the atmosphere using 'EM' to eliminate any atmospheric scattering/photon-refraction for incoming photons from the sun.

 

The basic idea: we have always received a vast amount of solar radiation ==> mucho energy. The atmosphere prevents a large majority of this energy from reaching the surface of the earth -- so the idea is to create a vacuum to 'allow' those particles to hit the surface unobstructed. If we could control the process, we can 'open' up the funnel for a few weeks at a time and (presuming we can have the proper infrastructure and containment in place) power the entire world many many times over.

 

Exciting, eh?

 

How close are they?

 

The hard part is containing the process of creating the vaccum.....I give us another fifty-seventy years. (Edit: almost forgot the pesky little problem abou the magnetic field....but its really the other side of the same problematic coin from what I comprehend)

 

More power = unlimited food/water supply BTW = massive increase of standard of care for entire world = conservation of valuable organic resources

 

If we are to save ourselves, many (me included) firmly believe that the power issue needs top priority.

 

Sorry if the stuff in quotes seem vague: EM/vacuum-funnel -- but its the best way I can describe it in such a general forum.

 

 

 

 

 

Mars got the hookup!! What would be REALLY cool is if we could have that SNROTE convention somewhere on Mars /sigh One can only dream.....but maybe our kids will have the chance

[Sakarissa]

While all this is way cool, it is probably moot. A friend of mine gave me a link a while back to a report regarding the Earth's planetary "health" status. One of the big items in this report was the fact that the magnetic poles are moving. Currently, the South Pole is in the Indian Ocean. It has moved over 900km in the last 100 years and the shift/year is increasing. The scientist who wrote the report suggested we are looking at a pole shift (ie, north and south poles switch places). If he's right, then we could face some rather interesting times. I don't recall any timeframe on the report for when this would happen but it was interesting to read.

 

Sakarissa

[T'Aleen Empire]

the Pole shift happens roughly ever 5,000 yrs or so. This could explain many "mythical' happenings in our culture. Each time it happens great civilizations are destroyed and/or reduced to rubble and are only remembered in myth. Could this be what happened to Atlantis and others? Our southern polar region is melting fast, and the ground down there is starting to show through the remaining ice. If the poles would shift, there would be a period of great geological disturbances. The damage would be sever, hopefully this time around civilization will not collapse.

[T'Aleen Empire]

Thinking about this more I might be mistaken in the time frame, it is either every 5,000 yrs or it is every 10,000 yrs. I am not sure which, but one is the correct timeframe.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

I think you'll find that it's nearer 10,000 years and the date you're looking for is December 23rd 2012........

[T'Aleen Empire]

Now isn't that the calander data of the end of the world...I don't beleive the world will end, but that is as good a date as any other, to some it might be the end of the world or life's status quo at that time..but there will be a graet rebirth hopefully as civilization rebuilds after the great about of geological damage and etc.

 

Who knows what will happen

[Krelnett_of_Kraan]

Contrary to popular belief, 2012 is not the end of the world. It's simply the end of the Fifth Age, according to Mayan calendars. Some (notably Shadowrun players and the weird fringe of Pagan theology) believe magick will reawaken at that point and the Sixth Age will be more enlightened than this one has been.