Clan Elder 'Keen Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Some weapon systems fire just fine from further back, so there would be little reason to put them up front and suffer greater targeting chances and no defensive benefit. For me the question is... which weapon systems? The range info appended to the bottom of battle reports, if taken literally, indicates that only some missile weapons have an unpenalized range beyond [1]. We can also safely assume that fighters and drones operate independently of range. So if this is the case, the optimal offensive location for everything else is [1] to avoid penalty, which doesn't strike me as terrible creative for ship design. "Standard/Long/Standoff missiles and carriers to the rear and everyone else up front!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Yes, it drops off by 10% per DepLoc as written. A minimum is an obvious requirement to avoid total destruction of a fleet without any return fire whatsoever. If there were no minimum, deployment at or beyond the minimum range would mean suicide Missile ships might as well be rear deployed to their range DepLocs to avoid enemy fire. You might not want to put all other ships in DepLoc 1 because they would then all be equally interesting as targets. Some might want to be at 2 or 3, for example, with your screens up front. Sure, you'd lose some firepower on the 2/3/4/etc ones, but if they live longer because your screens in 1 are hit more often, you would be hoping to regain that firepower and then some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Some weapon systems fire just fine from further back, so there would be little reason to put them up front and suffer greater targeting chances and no defensive benefit. For me the question is... which weapon systems? The range info appended to the bottom of battle reports, if taken literally, indicates that only some missile weapons have an unpenalized range beyond [1]. We can also safely assume that fighters and drones operate independently of range. So if this is the case, the optimal offensive location for everything else is [1] to avoid penalty, which doesn't strike me as terrible creative for ship design. "Standard/Long/Standoff missiles and carriers to the rear and everyone else up front!" Ah ha! Well, in this instance, everything seems perfectly logical. Apart from quite specific weapons designed to fire from longer ranges, it's completely logical that maximum effect is caused from the closest range - ie DepLoc 1. If you choose to further protect some of your ships by moving them to the rear and thus reduce the chance of them being targetted, or, if it makes more sense, that they are not 'in the rear' but screened by other ships - then their weapons become less effective. So, it seems perfectly sensible that most empires will probably have serious Assault ships with Point Blank weapons in DL1 or DL2, perhaps Heavy Screen in the same DLs, with the Battle Line immediately 'behind'. 'Longer' ranged missile ships will be next, perhaps with Standoff ships even further 'back'. Carriers at the back with any non-combat ships really back there! Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Yes, it drops off by 10% per DepLoc as written. A minimum is an obvious requirement to avoid total destruction of a fleet without any return fire whatsoever. If there were no minimum, deployment at or beyond the minimum range would mean suicide Thanks Pete, Knowing there's a minimum at least means that every ship with an offensive weapon will at least get one shot in - everything else is up to us to design into the Battle Plans. However, it's the sort of thing we should know - is it a residual 10%, or more? And can we re-plea for an understanding of what the Fire Control Number and Defensive decimal numerics mean? Having the Fire Control number changed from a single number giving us the number of ships that can be targetted to one that at least allows us to determine where the number comes from is great; but we need the other number too! Could you please tell us whether there is a number that = targets (ie 100,000 = 1), or better still could the original number be appended? ie Fire Control Rating: 50,000 : 2..... so, rating of 50,000 - 2 ships targetted per 'round'..... And on the decimal numerics - please can we know what they mean? We can calculate them, but what do they mean? Lastly, given the DepLoc understanding on weapons - is there something similar for the defensive bonus accruing per DepLoc? We need this to try and decide the benefits of having ships further back vis a vis the benefits of trying to increase the percentage of actual defensive systems, which brings us back to the need to understand what those defensive benefits are...... Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Yes, it drops off by 10% per DepLoc as written. A minimum is an obvious requirement to avoid total destruction of a fleet without any return fire whatsoever. If there were no minimum, deployment at or beyond the minimum range would mean suicide Thanks Pete, Knowing there's a minimum at least means that every ship with an offensive weapon will at least get one shot in - everything else is up to us to design into the Battle Plans. However, it's the sort of thing we should know - is it a residual 10%, or more? And can we re-plea for an understanding of what the Fire Control Number and Defensive decimal numerics mean? Having the Fire Control number changed from a single number giving us the number of ships that can be targetted to one that at least allows us to determine where the number comes from is great; but we need the other number too! Could you please tell us whether there is a number that = targets (ie 100,000 = 1), or better still could the original number be appended? ie Fire Control Rating: 50,000 : 2..... so, rating of 50,000 - 2 ships targetted per 'round'..... And on the decimal numerics - please can we know what they mean? We can calculate them, but what do they mean? Lastly, given the DepLoc understanding on weapons - is there something similar for the defensive bonus accruing per DepLoc? We need this to try and decide the benefits of having ships further back vis a vis the benefits of trying to increase the percentage of actual defensive systems, which brings us back to the need to understand what those defensive benefits are...... Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Yes, no Drone Strikes a la SN II where the attackers wins every time and the defender never gets a shot off Reworking battle results once again to add more detail oiver all. Minimum r_eff is 5%. More detail to come in battle reports regarding defensive systems and defense adjustment by deploy location. Fire Control is a straight tonnage calculation. Mk II Computers, for instance, have a Bridge rating of 4000, and mass 100 tons each. This means that if you put one on a 1000 ton ship, representing 10% of its tonnage, that ship would have a Fire Control rating of 4. It would split its fire into 4 "globs" of damage and target those 4 shots independently. It might hit the same enemy ship 4 times, by the way, but this is very unlikely if there are a lot of targets to choose from. More shots does give it a better chance to hit (with one quarter of its firepower) enemy ships that are rear deployed. So...if you want a Fire Control rating of 4, you'd need to have 10% of your fleet made out of Mk II Computers. There would be no point in using 2.5% of less, since you always get a Fire Control rating of at least 1. As it happens, Mk II Computers are pretty low tech, with Bridge rating efficiencies rising dramatically for superior technologies (well beyond the 2.5% = Fire Control 1 mark). If you've got a trading partner, having one of you run up a Bridge item tree isn't such a bad idea...who said trade was dead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Thanks Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Does that mean that a fleet with a total tonnage of 1,000,000 and a fire control rating of 250,000 will only get a single shot each round or does it mean that the fleet will divide it's fire up 4 ways? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 I think drone strikes could actually work if they had certain restrictions. Since the drones would be launched from really long range the defender should get a serious bonus to his point defense as well as the drones being a one shot item. Then I don't think they would be the scourge they were in SN II. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Pete- GREAT info on fire control. To clarify the 'formula': If I have a 100,000 ton ship with a 'Fire Control' of 275,000....that ship will have 2.75 firing blobs, right? (rounded down...to just two! Should have tweeked enough computers to get 25,000 more fire control for the third 'blob', right?) Now...how do I know my Mk II Computer has a rating of 4,000 other than what you just told me? I see that I can derive the fire control through battle reports....but any chance we can just get ratings from the ANZ? Or do we have to build them and then FOB/fight with them to get those? It would also be nice to have all ratings come with the ANZ....ie....Tugs. Just how many TONS can a Medium Magnetic Grapple tow? Or is that something I have to 'discover'? :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Does that mean that a fleet with a total tonnage of 1,000,000 and a fire control rating of 250,000 will only get a single shot each round or does it mean that the fleet will divide it's fire up 4 ways? 1 million ton fleet with 250,000 bridge would get 0.25 shots, which defaults to 1. Fire Control (shots) = Bridge total / tonnage If Mk II Computer Systems were used for that 1 million ton fleet, that would mean only 62.5 of them somewhere in the fleet, or 6,250 tons out of 1,000,000. To multitarget over 2 enemy ships, that fleet would need 2 million bridge output, or 2,000,000 / 4,000 = 500 Mk II Computer Systems, for 50,000 total tons somewhere in the fleet (5%). Better bridge systems would drop this 5% figure dramatically, or in any event allow for even more bridge systems to be installed (to raise Fire Control to 3, 4 etc). If you wanted to split your fire over 20 targets and only had Mk II Computer Systems, that million ton fleet would need 20 = x / 1,000,000 x = 20,000,000 # Mk II Computer Systems = 20,000,000 / 4,000 # Mk II Computer Systems = 5,000 tonnage of Mk II Computer Systems would therefore = 5,000 * 100 = 500,000 which is half of the fleet! In this case you'd be well served to use superior bridge technology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Pete- GREAT info on fire control. To clarify the 'formula': If I have a 100,000 ton ship with a 'Fire Control' of 275,000....that ship will have 2.75 firing blobs, right? (rounded down...to just two! Should have tweeked enough computers to get 25,000 more fire control for the third 'blob', right?) Now...how do I know my Mk II Computer has a rating of 4,000 other than what you just told me? I see that I can derive the fire control through battle reports....but any chance we can just get ratings from the ANZ? Or do we have to build them and then FOB/fight with them to get those? It would also be nice to have all ratings come with the ANZ....ie....Tugs. Just how many TONS can a Medium Magnetic Grapple tow? Or is that something I have to 'discover'? :lol: Correct, your 100,000 ton fleet with bridge items having 275,000 total bridge output would have 2.75 = 2.0 "globs" or shots. Should have gotten another 25,000 The 4,000 figure could be seen on battle reports as it shows total bridge values. I'm also going to add it to your FOB results so that you won't have to run a battle to find out. ANZ results same thing - bridge #'s will show up for those soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan Elder 'Keen Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Clarification: Is fire control per fleet, per empire, or per side of a battle? (In other words, will 2 or more empires fighting together share firecontrol, or do you need bridge items specifically on your own ships? Depending, it could be a disadvantage if your ally brings alot of "dumb" tonnage...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Pete, Thanks - that's just perfect and means that we can treat the Fire Control just like the defensive systems and that it relates to Ship/Fleet tonnage. Thinking logically, I would probably have assumed it related to numbers of weapons, rather than tonnage - but now we can design, thanks again! Regards Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric and the entire Military Staff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Is the fire control rating adjusted every round to account for ships destroyed and damage taken to ships not destroyed? Is there no chance at all that some ship will not follow the leader and fires on something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Clarification: Is fire control per fleet, per empire, or per side of a battle? (In other words, will 2 or more empires fighting together share firecontrol, or do you need bridge items specifically on your own ships? Depending, it could be a disadvantage if your ally brings alot of "dumb" tonnage...) Per side in a battle. An allied fleet can provide Fire Control for your entire combined force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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