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How do you "claim" a system?


EternusIV

When does an empire have a "claim" on a system?  

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The Boo brought up a good point in another post that seems related to the whole NSI/WKE thing:

 

When does an empire "control" a system?

 

 

I am curious on how most of you viewed the issue of territory.

 

It seems the NSI/WKE situation could be better analyzed if we had a common understanding of what it means to "control" a system.

 

Eventually, we might create a treaty based on how we perceive the issue of territorial control - making it easier to define who are the "aggressors" in these situations.

 

 

 

My opinion?

 

"By military force or mutual agreement only"

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My view is any system within 2 of your home system is automatically your territory. Outside that, you've got to establish a colony or at least a beacon. Just getting a ship there first is insufficient. I voted for "establish a colony" but I would also vote for "within 2 systems" because I think it's either or.

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Any and all of the above option as determined by me at the time. There are also a few options that aren't listed, to whit;

 

1) all of the systems between your homeworld and an established colony

2) anyplace you feel is strategically important

 

 

The other question that always comes up with this one is about claiming the entire system or only the part of it that you are using.

 

Of course from my perspective I own everything since I am alone in the universe. :jawdrop:

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The Boo are delighted at the prospect that others might also like to see a multilateral treaty approach to dealing with these issues. Hammering these sticking points out ahead of time is how we secure intergalactic peace and prosperity.

 

In Peace

Boo Consulate

 

As we have said, a mixture of factors in each case need to be considered.

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Until a multilateral treaty is proposed and ratified by other empires, The Everlasting Spawn wish to elaborate their policies on territory, colonization and warfare (ahem):

 

Policy Directive for Everlasting Spawn: Territory

================================

We view each system, equally accessibe to all, except for by written agreement or by the natural consequence of military action.

 

 

Policy Directive for Everlasting Spawn: War

================================

We are at peace with all races until fired upon under any circumstance.

 

 

Policy Directive for Everlasting Spawn: Co-Habitation

====================================

We are not opposed to the co-habitation of a particular world with any empire provided no hostile actions are taken against the life, peace and tranquility of the numerous citizens of the Everlasting Spawn.

 

 

We hope that other empires are earnest in establishing written agreements to avert needless violence. Its not like any of us are running out of room! (Well...ok...its true that I cant make enough CM/CBs to control my home population...but you catch my drift) :jawdrop:

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My view is any system within 2 of your home system is automatically your territory. Outside that, you've got to establish a colony or at least a beacon. Just getting a ship there first is insufficient. I voted for "establish a colony" but I would also vote for "within 2 systems" because I think it's either or.

How do you propose to justify this claim. International Water claims are set by International Law. Is there a 2 system law in place that we do not know about or is this another case of trying to push GSL logic on the masses.

 

What happens if we are 4 systems apart? Who gets the central system? Do we have claim on each others systems?

 

What happens if you start later? And the other players gets within your 2 out? This could have happened between the Pride and I because my position started 9-12 months before his. (the only reason it did not was because this potential conflict system is a nexus). What do you propose there?

 

We are 3 systems apart. Eyre - A - B - C - Pride. Now who gets system B? Me since I started before him? Do we discuss?

 

Please advise as to your logic..

 

Thanks

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I mentioned I had "several" reasons for voting the way I did.

 

MMB brings up a great point as to why I don't like the 2-system out policy:

 

1) Empires do not have a true "radius" of control because systems could be connected by a variety of warp points that lead between each other in different paths. This is also why its hard to lay claim to all systems "between" the 2-systems out and the home/colony system.

 

2) How do I know that your ship is 2 systems out? How can I verify it? If I find you six systems outside of my homeworld, what prevents me from stating - "hey, you are 2 systems out from my HW or colony therefore I have natural rights to this system, please turn around"....how would you know the truth of the claim?

 

 

 

Without agreements between peoples, no system will work. And even agreements fail....which leads to the reality:

 

He/she with biggest stick in system controls it.

 

Despite the harsh reality, agreements are still a valuable tool to avert needless warfare and I will always pursue agreements over aggressive territorialism.

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My view is any system within 2 of your home system is automatically your territory.  Outside that, you've got to establish a colony or at least a beacon.  Just getting a ship there first is insufficient.  I voted for "establish a colony" but I would also vote for "within 2 systems" because I think it's either or.

How do you propose to justify this claim. International Water claims are set by International Law. Is there a 2 system law in place that we do not know about or is this another case of trying to push GSL logic on the masses.

 

What happens if we are 4 systems apart? Who gets the central system? Do we have claim on each others systems?

 

What happens if you start later? And the other players gets within your 2 out? This could have happened between the Pride and I because my position started 9-12 months before his. (the only reason it did not was because this potential conflict system is a nexus). What do you propose there?

 

We are 3 systems apart. Eyre - A - B - C - Pride. Now who gets system B? Me since I started before him? Do we discuss?

 

Please advise as to your logic..

 

Thanks

You mistunderstand entirely. If any alliance, be it the GSL or any other, wishes to respect certain territorial bounderies of other players, that is their decision. No alliance that governs itself in the way it respects others boundaries is imposing rules on others. If I say as a member of an alliance (or indeed, as an independent) that I will not encroach on your space, that is not a rule I am imposing on you. It is a benefit I am giving you. If you don't return the favor and encroach on my systems, then I am free to interpret that as aggression. If you think that is imposing my rules on someone else, consider that I COULD just say that I do not respect any of your territory. Then I would have no rules set for myself, and I can attack whenever and wherever I want. Setting territorial bounderies for yourself and being willing to respect those boundaries for others has nothing to do with imposing your own rules. It has to do with how you set your *own* rules of engagement with other empires. Others can set their own rules of engagement. The degree of harmony between the rules of the one and the rules of the other who meet in space will determine the outcome in a given situation.

 

This, by the way, has nothing to do with GSL policy. I am speaking entirely on my own behalf.

 

Over and out.

 

- woolfe

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If you think that is imposing my rules on someone else, consider that I COULD just say that I do not respect any of your territory. Then I would have no rules set for myself, and I can attack whenever and wherever I want. Setting territorial bounderies for yourself and being willing to respect those boundaries for others has nothing to do with imposing your own rules. It has to do with how you set your *own* rules of engagement with other empires. Others can set their own rules of engagement. The degree of harmony between the rules of the one and the rules of the other who meet in space will determine the outcome in a given situation.

 

And if you hammer out a policy or agreement, you have a lot more security on how to expect others to react to you.

 

Granted, treaties are broken...but its better than what most of us currently have: nothing.

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Here's my take on things. I am currently in "talks" with another Empire. We are getting along just fine. We had our initial contact, peaceful I might add. On the last turn results we encountered each other 3 more times. Due to the nature and location of these encounters, all peaceful I might add, we agreed to a common border and even established a "Neutral Zone". One of the three encounters placed him in a system 2 jumps from my homeworld and in a system that I claim. He was really cool about it and claims that it is stuck right now due to "equipment problems." In other words, his ship is stuck until he can rescue it. This example of 2 Empires interacting has been rather nice and the other player, you know who you are, has been really decent about things. Maybe, just maybe, others will follow this example and be Good Neighbors.

 

Sakarissa :P

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I think some of the answer may depend on your race design. A strong colonizer may be able to succesfully colonize many different planets. So they may want to claim any colony = mine, mine, mine. For others, many planets are near useless (for now with the available tech). Since colonies won't cut it, they may choose discovery of the system (first come firt serve) or camping at WP's.

 

Ya know, I do not think there is anyway we could even remotely agree on the same answer for everyone.

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Yes - it does seem to be more of a case-by-case situation.

 

Its kind of like how nobody can agree whether you or NSI are the aggressors in your skirmish....

 

But I'm optimistic that standards will emerge as the game develops and that we can create some basic guidelines to help demarcate "aggression v. peaceful expansion"

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