Sharing Technologies

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Hidden tech trees also magnify the advantage of saving race points.

I have to strongly disagree!

 

If the Tech Tree was indeed hidden, then the effect of SRPs would be minimised....

 

If it was hidden and there was no tech sharing, the the use of SRPs would be blind and result in people wasting them on many blind alleys.

 

What is very unbalancing is having SRPs and actually knowing the tech tree - which is what would happen if you joined an alliance, or something like ISIS, and gained all their knowledge so that you could target your research.

 

Thinking very logically, in a couple of years time I predict that the Tech Tree will be pretty much known and someone will put one up on a website somewhere. When that happens, and everyone is made aware of the little publicised fact that it appears that we were all supposed to spend 1000 SRPs on our race and keep 1000 to spend on tech, then things will be much more equal.

 

My personal preference would be for no SRPs whatsoever. You get to spend your 2000 points designing your race how you want and then get on with it. Modifying your race subsequently with the appropriate technology......

 

Chief Scientist to Ur-Lord Tedric

[Bovine Hegemony]

And I must disagree with you Ur Lord Tedric. Yes, knowing the tech tree makes SRPs even more abusive, but they still give a massive advantage in how quickly a player can explore various different tech paths.

 

Using the Transwarp Drive as an example, and I admit my numbers on this could be wrong on this critical path:

 

Improved Fuel: 12 RP

Advanced Fuel: 24 RP

NTWD: 3 RP

 

Five turns to buy for a SRP race, to develop using 1 RC with no science bonus 39 turns. The best brain bonus I have seen has reduced research time by 1/3, 8+18+3=27 turns. How is a big brain going to catch up in any reasonable time frame? It isn't like the SRP race isn't researching other things with their other 24 RC and I suspect most of those races would take a brain bonus.

 

I agree that at kickoff there were a great many things that should have been better defined, or suggested. SN3 certainly isn't the game I thought it would be when I signed up initially. I muddle on though trying to avoid the impact hammers and cattle prods of Kurassier.

[ShadowKitsune]

BH-

 

I think you're actually agreeing with the Ur Lord. He's advocating the abolishing of SRPs. Either you spend all 2000 set-up points on your race or you don't, but any leftover points are just tossed in the proverbial dust bin. They don't convert at a 1:1 ratio as Tech Points (or however Technological achievement is measured).

 

FWIW,

- SK

[Paradigm]

BH-

 

I think you're actually agreeing with the Ur Lord. He's advocating the abolishing of SRPs. Either you spend all 2000 set-up points on your race or you don't, but any leftover points are just tossed in the proverbial dust bin. They don't convert at a 1:1 ratio as Tech Points (or however Technological achievement is measured).

That's my opinion as well. Or restrict them more than they are now. Perhaps make every 10 leftover race points = 1 research point instead of the current 1:1 ratio. Or restrict them to the techs that take less than 20 points to research. Or limit them to a maximum of 100 points. As is, they appear to be too powerful and unbalancing and every single race (except the bad ones) are going to start with 1,000 or so SRP's leading to a lot of cookie cutter races.

 

I do have to caveat this that I'm basing this opinion on imperfect and incomplete information. The evidence is fairly strong, but is not perfect. If we find out that races that spent 1,000 points on space combat related lifeform bonuses easily defeat SRP races despite the SRP race having several generations of technology advantage, things would balance out more. Or if the big brain races were to catch and pass the 1,000 SRP races within a year or two of game play, it wouldn't be so bad. There is little evidence to the latter so far based on the information I'm privy to.

 

Part of the question is just how powerful is the technology edge that the SRP races can reach so fast? Some of it looks pretty powerful to me.

 

One major penalty to not having SRP's is when a race discovers it's been following the wrong tech path for many turns. A SRP race can easily tidy up that little oversight in a few turns. The non-SRP race is pretty much screwed. Even if they throw all 25 RC's in to catching up in that one critical area, that'll put them farther and farther behind in other areas.

 

I also get the impression that some of the elder races feel cheated in that SRP's were not stressed and may have even been discouraged as more of a consolation to those that couldn't find a way to spend their last few race design points than a critically necessary aspect of their lifeform's design? Those that didn't just start over as a SRP race that is.

[Laserwolf]

The BIG advantage of the brainiac begins at 5th generation tech (where SRP's fail). Although only they have the ability to get 24 2nd generation techs a full 2 months sooner than others, at 5th gen + this is really pronounced.

 

Lets assume that 5th gen computers takes 48 RC points. nearly 2 years at 1 RC, human development.

 

This is 32 turns for the brainiacs. is 8 months sooner an edge? I'd say so.

 

But lets look at a 6th gen tech, one you REALLY want to have (like stable wormhole construction) and assume it take 60 RC's to get (40 for the brainiac). Nearly a year sooner than others.

 

Let's assume he REALLY REALLY wanted it bad because the development path of his race depended on it. (say he needed to modify his incoming system warp points to make them H's instead of B's). The emperor's science advisor recommends that all empire research focus on this one technology. 25 RC's even at the hideously inefficient square root penalty (5 RC's), gives this race this WAY COOL, race changing technology in ONLY 8 TURNS!

 

I don't care how many SRP you have, you CAN"T TOUCH THAT!

 

The problem is that once even a human troop transport arrives on brainiac HW, they have to defend at a minimum of 16:1 odds to prevent brainiac species from becoming subjegated iron mine slaves.

 

Think long term game. I advocate the formal publishing of all SRPable tech by RTG. We'll all know it eventually, why not publish it now to level the field for everyone? We'll still have to research our way to the 4th gen to get a peek at what might open and actually get within research distance to ANZ it, but at least all would have the basics to plan their race's future with. Much like having all the racial design variables at the beginning, we could choose our path. With all SRPables published we could truly design the first 2 years of our empire's grand and glorious plans from the get go!

[Paradigm]

. . . This is 32 turns for the brainiacs. is 8 months sooner an edge? I'd say so.

 

. . . I don't care how many SRP you have, you CAN"T TOUCH THAT! . . .

But the SRP race will have fulfilled the prerequisites for the 5th gen plus techs a couple years before the brain race. So even without a huge brain, the SRP race will have the tech first, or worst case, close enough that it doesn't matter.

 

It's true of course that at some point the brain race will pull ahead in tech. That date is looking pretty far in the future though. How many people honestly think they'll be playing the same race 10 years from now assuming the game runs that long? 20 years? There may be a few diehards, but I'll wager that most of the players are not going to wait many years for the brain to catch up.

[Kurassier]

I think it also goes back to personal preferences. I personally like the fact that I don't know the entire tech tree, but can make 'educated' guesses based upon what I know.

I bet if we took a serious look at 'research' on planet earth over the past 10-20 years, I would venture to say there was an awful lot of wasted research. Somebody trying to develop a theory that just didn't pan out. The difference here, is that we always get something for our investment, it just may not be exactly what we want. I quickly developed Improved Fuel, on the mistaken belief that I could then use 'less' fuel in my ships. Well, it didn't work that way as we all now know, however, I was that much closer to Advanced Fuel required for the TWD's.

I'm also not naive enough, to know that this is a game and eventually, as mentioned above, the tech tree (certainly at least the lesser levels) will be posted on a website somewhere for all to see. Therefore, anybody that joined after me will have an 'advantage' that I did not.

This will in no way take away from me the enjoyment of the GAME, and all of the interactions and StarBars building. After all, I take some pride in the fact that I have been in this from DAY 1, with the same empire. Yes, I am an Elder Race as some have been calling us. I have enjoyed all of the interactions here and otherwise. I have dealt with some of the same frustrations all of you have at various times, but am still willing to give Pete and Russ credit for putting this together and their willingness to make improvements as needed.

 

Now where was I, oh yes, 5th Generation Cattle Branding Nearing Completions, excellent! How are those Mk VI Improved Lariats coming?

[Tokmok]

Hi

 

somethings to consider

 

1)

If max sciencebonus really gives a 50% bonus then look what happens when you decide to give an item more that one RC.Based on effective research = Squareroot (RC´s)

 

effective Research

RC´s allocated ----------Normal----------------brainiac

1 RC´s ----------------- 1 ------------------- 1,5

2 RC´s ---------------- 1,41 --------------- 2,12

4 RC´s ---------------- 2 ------------------ 3,0

8 RC´s ---------------- 2,83 --------------- 4,24

16 RC´s ---------------- 4 ---------------- 6

 

As you can see a brainiac race gets a much better bang for the buck when allocating multiple RC´s. Look a normals 16 RC´s is equal to 8 RC´s of a brainiac.

That difference is going to matter a big deal when you get to higher tech levels.

 

2)

 

Ground combat items take up a lot of RC´s if you want to get anywhere seriously.

A race that has taken huge bonuses in ground combat could esily forget about groundcombat research for a couple of years and then have a lot of RC´s free to other stuff(And still be ahead in ground combat).

 

(This is only a theory, I don´t know how much ground combat Research is worth compared to lifeform abillities)

 

Thanks

 

Tokmok out

[EternusIV]

"But the SRP race will have fulfilled the prerequisites for the 5th gen plus techs a couple years before the brain race. So even without a huge brain, the SRP race will have the tech first, or worst case, close enough that it doesn't matter. "

 

Not necessarily so if they plan their research carefully.

 

SRP races only get ONE advance per turn. I'll skip the boring math.....Braniac+SRPs is the way to advance fast in this game. In the LONG run, the braniac has the research advantage.

 

The real question is this.......

 

how do NON-Braniac SRPs match up against the tremendous advantages to faster research?

 

In other words - how important IS it to have that third tail and indestructible-digestion system, in light of the importance of tech breakthroughs?

 

We can only HOPE that the answer is - "it all evens out in the end"

 

 

 

OBTW - I dont mind the slowness....I was just pointing out that eliminating SRPs slows down the process of developing appropriate technology to FIND OTHER PLAYERS....which is a hurdle once you flip the other side of the coin over (status quo)

[Palladium Regency]

Being an elder race who didn't save many RP, I see the tech that MadMartin claims to have and really wonder how I could compete with him or someone like him if I bumped into him tomorrow. Some of the tech he lists are more than a year away for me. The reports from the board are that there is a 30% increase, or thereabouts, in advantage between generations. My hope is that many in the core are in my same situation; therefore, it won't be an issue for at least a while.

[ShadowKitsune]

Here's to you being closer to me than Pirate Boy. Since my people are niether braniacs nor SRP monsters.

 

-SK

[PhaseDragon]

I suggested the abolishment of SRP's in another thread long ago. My solution was a different tradeoff such as in More stockpiles of Iron or Crystals instead of SRP's. I suspect that if that were the case then most players would spend all their points.

[Sssarass]

Dear Palladium Regency,

 

perhapsss he runsss multiple racesss. Hisss sssay pirate could have sssaved a few pointsss and bought to attack fighter by turn three. And Yamal forgive, that he would ussse multiple RC's to put on bomber like 8-15 a turn (perisssh that thought my ssscientissstsss would revolt), being a core, near core race with sssay around 30 turns in and sssome brainsss he would have probable finissshed at leassst bomber'sss.

 

And perhapsss he runsss a colonizer that focusssed on economicsss, he could easssily be at 3g indussstrial ssscience.

 

---------------

 

Taking a bassse human, they could buy to 4g tech by turn 3 and put an rc on turn 4 towards the 5g tech. Ssso if a 60 point item, on turn 63 they would finish it versssusss a brain

Sssomeonesss essstimated cossst, not oursss

Level 2 = 12 or 8 for a brain

Level 3 = 24 or 16 for a brain

Level 4 = 48 or 24 for a brain

Level 5 = 60 or 40 for a brain

 

or 88 turnsss later they get it, or sssay roughly 1 year later (asssuming no exploresss or breakthroughsss, Yamal fogive the dumb brain who didn't do explorationsss or invessst in ssscientissstsss or their inssstallationsss.)

 

That alssso asssumesss that wasss a dumb big brain race that didn't sssave even a few SssRP'sss. Oh wait if he or ssshe did (being pc for all thossse cute female reptilesss out there ) sssave a few they would get it on turn 43 or a litttle over 9 monthsss before the human.

 

I would theorize that there is a balancing for putting pointsss into your race. Sssay more combat bonusssess, more hit pointsss so I with my Momba ATGM can kill one of you, but you with your lassser rifle can wipe out 15 of my troopsss. I persssonally never engage in that barbaric act of fighting. That'sss for dumb reptilesss.

 

CTO, Sssarass

[Sssarass]

Phassse Dragon, (big brother of sssortsss)

 

if you recomemded abolissshing SssRP'sss why did you sssetup a new race, or did you do ssso with no SssRP'sss thisss time asss well.

 

A curiousss little reptile would like to know? Hey watch your ssstep, thatsss me down here.

 

 

CTO, Sssarass

[Palladium Regency]

Greetings Sssarass.

ShadowKitsune summed up my feelings about my ground forces killing 15 of your ground troops for every one of mine in a prior post to this thread when he said,

My race may be tougher than public school cafeteria bacon on the ground, but it won't help me much if I'm being blasted from orbit by some frail, anemic, gnat-sized, micro-encephalits who used a boatload of SRPs to have Unobtanium Armor and Mark III Doom Blasters.

 

Sadly, I've bumped into only two other positions, one that is only accessible via a one way warp point which makes serious discussions of trade and such academic and the other isn't communicating.