Balagor Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 It seems clear the the SN data base has some sort of absolute X,Y,Z system to it. It is also clear the this information will not be distributed to us because it would be rather unbalancing (after all, if I know my X,Y,Z and your X,Y,Z I know how to get to you, and thus can coordinate either war or trade). In a "real universe" it would be possible for folks to figure out some form of coordinates, due to being able to ID stars by their spectrographic content (like we do with the Star Name), but for each race the coordinate system would be different (due to different definitions of distance and time that would be inherent to each race, as well as different ideas on what makes up a good reference for the coordinates). So might I suggest the following, we might get coordinates, but only in our "local" system. Basically for each races, you would need to store the races home system location, and a transformation matrix. You would apply both to a given galactic coordinate to create that races local coordinate. About transformation matrixes for the less mathematically inclined (and I am only semi-inclined, so a real math whiz might want to correct me). When adjusting for a new coordinate frame, there are 7 thing to adjust for. First is translation in the X,Y, and Z axis to a new origin. This is accomplished be a simple subtraction of the local home X,Y,Z from the desired X,Y,Z. The next 3 are rotations of the coordinate frame. These can be in the pitch (think plane nose up and down), yaw (think plane nose swinging side to side), and roll (think plane barrell rolling). I would have to look up the exact math,but the effects of these 3 motions can be expressed as a 3x3 translation matrix. Further, there would be a scale factor to adjust for differing races units of time and distance. The formula would look like : local(x,y,z) = ( galactic(x,y,z) - home_galactic(x,y,z) ) * transform matrix[3x3] * scale factor (scalar). The scale factor could be applied to the transform matrix in advance so all that would have to be stored would be the home_galactic and the transform/scale matrix. The rotations that make up the transform matrix and scale factor would be randomly determined for each race as it was created. What this system would mean is that without actually sharing multiple stars with another race, you would have no idea where they actually were. This would mean that races with shared stars could have a shared map once they worked out the transforms. I am not sure the number of stars needed to guarantee a full solution, but I suspect its on the order of 5. Note that while this system would provide good coordinates for each person's star map, and keep people from knowing where others were until and actual meeting, it would still have the potential issues some have raised of making it somewhat easier to track an enemy down (you know you met him in the NW corner of your map, so you track in a general NW direction to try and hunt him down). Comments, Opinions, slams on my lack of mathematical rigor ? Balagor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cestvel Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 I do not think that it would help with the underlying problem. It is the same if you do a "weird" transformation or center all HWs at 0,0,0. The rsult is basically the same. Two empire meet, they exchange their map, and their transformation (needing to more common stars to figure the more complex transformation), and have a knowledge of what is right, left etc. of their positions. So I can figured out a general direction without actually going there. That was he main point (as I understand it) why Pete does not want us to have *any* coordinate System. Cestvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurassier Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 IN case you need to know, my homeworld is the center of the universe. It's coordinates are 0,0,0. Just for those who wanted to know. Technically, wouldn't every race begin mapping their stars with their HW as the base? All mapping would be relevant to that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan Elder 'Keen Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 I am really enjoying the mapping just as it is implemented now. Every turn is an adventuring, discovering new and sometimes seemingly wierd interconnections of warp points. There is always a bit of mystery involved, no matter how far from your homeworld you have pushed out. Its the perfect backdrop for neighborhood alliances to start to meet up and slug it out with each other. No coordinates are necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Uriel Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Balagor, What is a matrix, and how do you use it? Semi-mathmatically inclined? Come on, you even used the word formula and gave an example. To the Depths of Blackness with all these vile mathmaticians! Wizards of Damnation they are! They will turn you from plain honest thinking and have you start thinking it's possible to use imaginary numbers! Falsehoods and smoke! People, if you want a math game, stick to Tetris. If you are given x,y,z coordinates, you will exploit them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali-t-akua Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 IN case you need to know, my homeworld is the center of the universe. It's coordinates are 0,0,0. Just for those who wanted to know. That's funny those are my coordinates too. I looked around for you but you are there. Did you get cloaking already. Hmmm. This could explain the rapid beer delivery. They will turn you from plain honest thinking and have you start thinking it's possible to use imaginary numbers! But imaginary numbers are real. Really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughestrog Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 But imaginary numbers are real. Really. -1^1/2 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Uriel Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 This came in my email this morning, and just seems appropiate. * "The good Christian should beware of mathematicians and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell." -- St. Augustine I have a friend that is an electrical engineer at Lockheed Martin and works on some kind of voodoo "If I told you I would have to kill you" stuff. I remember very distinctly the day he came home from class (we were roomies at the time) and he told me about imaginary numbers. Of course, ever the wit, I responded why bother doing the assignment, for I felt it was possible to imagine the solution in my head was correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelnett_of_Kraan Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Who says all races would use anything resembling Cartesian coordinates, anyway? Our astrography uses radial geometry (first coordinate is the angle around a circle described by the orbit of the homeworld, with the position of the world on the First Queen's hatching-day as the zero-point; second is the angle of elevation or declination from the plane of orbit, third is the distance)and a base 6 number system. Could we please have all our coordinates described thusly? };-)> OoC PS: Only half kidding, this is the system I envisioned for the Zraaknod, but I wouldn't want to put Pete and Russ through the torture of converting everything. Especially when they could be using their time to finish implementing the diplomacy and espionage code! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospective Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Just a question about the whole subject. I understand that by having an x,y.z coordinate system, a starmap could be created using the astrosynthesis program. I agree that it would be pretty cool and would enhance the whole gaming experience. However, I do not understand how having an actual coordinate system could possibly affect gameplay. As I understand it for SN:ROTE, each system is connected via a warp point and that is the ONLY way you can get from system to system. So, even if I were located 1 light year away from the most powerful empire in the whole game, I'd have nothing to fear as long as a warp point didn't connect our systems. Unless I am mistaken. IS there a way (other than via warp points) to travel from one system to another??? Or, better stated, will there eventually be a way to go from system to system without a warp point? BUT, even if eventually you can go from system to system without warp points, I suspect that you'd just enter the destination system NAME which remains constant. Comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhaseDragon Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 I think you pretty much summed it up. That's the way I see it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughestrog Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 This came in my email this morning, and just seems appropiate. * "The good Christian should beware of mathematicians and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell." -- St. Augustine Wouldn't necessarily trust him- he was the first to write an autobiography. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughestrog Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Unless I am mistaken. IS there a way (other than via warp points) to travel from one system to another??? Or, better stated, will there eventually be a way to go from system to system without a warp point? BUT, even if eventually you can go from system to system without warp points, I suspect that you'd just enter the destination system NAME which remains constant. Comments? Good point, who knows what's going to happen in the future, and what tech advances will become available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Miles Avatar Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 well.... considering the technology that our explorers have stumbled across in ancient vaults and cities and what not.. it is very possible that one day we wont need natural warp points to traverse the galaxy and could construct our own to go where we wish. Now that would be something!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.