Abusing the Cede Order

[richardjohns]

I will be keeping track of those who abuse the Cede Order. 

Game 105

 

Bulgaria

Libya 

Tunisia

Turkey

Egypt

Algeria

Persia

Southern Russia

Norway

Hungary

Czechoslovakia

 

[Saint Michael]

[The Fremen]

I know many of you remember the dreaded Terror attack option of the OMN CB order. After relentless abuse this was removed as was the morale loss from such attacks. 
 

enter another way to indirectly drop the morale of a nation using the CL order. Using interconnected Groups of TA’s a territory can be ceded like a hot potato forcing the target nation to declare war on all tentacles of the alliance. A clear abuse of the CL order and something that should be addressed. Maybe remove the morale loss for Declaring war? Or maybe increase the morale loss of the cede order significantly when the territory ceded is NOT ceded to the original owner? 

[Marklen X]

I'm of the opinion that if you war on one TA, you war on them all, so I think you should DW the entire group. That prevents the CL from mattering. 

[Predator]

Exactly 

I'm curious how algeria has abused the cede order since i haven't used it 

As marklen said typically if you DW on a country you DW on his whole TA group to avoid such problems. That it pretty much standard victory play. Russ has even doubled the starting morale of countries

 

[dageraad]

It is impossible to adress this problem within the bounds of the current game rules. 
The only way to prevent this is a total revision of the alliance system, so a war against a member of a TA automatically gets you into a war with all its members.  For a reduced morale cost. 
But that would cause all kinds of nasty wars like declaring war on someone you did not know was TA's to the other, and even declaring war on yourself. 
Removing the TA order alltogether destroys a vital aspect of the game.
So does Limiting a CL to the original owner. 

It is a relic of a play-by-mail- game in a time with instant communication over  continents and playing with gamers that know all the tricks.  

You get around all of this by making each CL part of the RWE. This should be possible. 
Or promising not to CL a location to someone the original owner is not at war with. 
I am willing to do that. 

 

 

 

 

[The Fremen]

4 hours ago, Predator said:

Exactly 

I'm curious how algeria has abused the cede order since i haven't used it 

As marklen said typically if you DW on a country you DW on his whole TA group to avoid such problems. That it pretty much standard victory play. Russ has even doubled the starting morale of countries

 

I think a few on the list may have been unjustly accused and are on there due to ‘guilt by association’ 😁. 
 

you are correct though Predator and MarklenX the CL becomes meaningless if you DW on all your enemies TA’s but if there are interlocking TA’s then the list of DW’s Becomes excessive especially in the early game. That was the point that is trying to be made and I agree with it. 
 

for example

Lets say Ireland is TA’ed to GB USA Canada and Morocco but Morocco is TA’ed with Ireland GB USA and Algeria. 
GB is TA’ed to Ireland USA Canada and Norway. You see the pattern here? It’s possible for groups of players to play hot potato with an conquered territory where the nation that lost the territory has to DW on all the interconnected nations to not get orders bounced. 

[Marklen X]

I don't dispute it's abused, but there are so many other things that are far more gamey in my opinion. Top of the list is delaying your turn to blind an opponent, which has happened to me a couple of times in 105 already. I agree with Dag that the legacy of a PBM game that hasn't been updated is a big cause of gamey behavior. With today's technology, it would be easy to email any battle reports to somebody involved when they happen. 

[ninja]

  This is a war game.  It will be hard, bloody and painful. You guys need to grow up or figure things out -

like playing together as a team.  Your spending way too much time on the Forums whining about things.

Most of what you say is crap, but this is a propaganda site… so OK.

  First you complain about somebody taking an Alliance with 3 of your guys when he wanted to have

T/A’s in the first place.  You already had 5 so that was out of the question, so you offered an ALL.

You didn’t set any turn limits or other requirements which I’m sure he would have honored, but you

expect an ALL (which is just a timeout before declaring war) to last? He has protected his T/A’s

(which your partners attacked) and has not broken the alliance he had with you.  Then you go on the

Forum and vilify him.  Sounds like a player I can get behind.

  Now a province is ceded to keep a larger army locked in a city from hitting that player, which he sacrificed

a unit to pass thru after a GE and take the next province.  Yes, he ceded the first province but it is not being

‘passed around like a hot potato’ to other countries... that same country still owns it  If you want to declare war

on five countries instead of taking the time for one of your allies to SIM TC so you can figure out who to

attack, that’s your problem. 

The block worked and it wasn’t to drop someone’s moral.  But hey, lets spread some more crap around. 

  I think I’ll start a list of whiners I don’t want on my team in the future.  I at least hope the Forum community

figures you two out for who you are.

 

[ninja]

The previous thread is in response to Richard John's and Freeman's accusations, not to those with the following comments...just to be clear.

[The Fremen]

Did I take a hostile stance Ninja?  Is discussing something that is obviously being used in a way not originally intended( per the programmer himself) whining?? You need to grow up yourself and learn to talk about things rather then flaming others or besmirching when they have a differing point of view. 
 

I personally couldn’t give a rats behind what you think but am still willing to discuss matters relating to making victory a more enjoyable experience for all 

[Predator]

I always try to keep from over lapping TA agreements for a multitude of reasons. I am strict about that when i join a group. This is the first game i can remember that hasn’t happened.

my good friend playing Tunisia died and we had to switch players around. As a result we had a first time player playing turkey so to give him a chance in the game we allowed him to cross TA.

One of my allies also brought a couple new players to victory and we cross ta’ed temporarily with one of them to help them with battle reports

i think it was the right thing to do to help three new players out hoping they survive long enough to get some experience and want to play again 

 

As far as the ceding goes we haven’t passed it around every turn to keep a force penned up. Every one who plays victory knows if you attack someone you DW on the whole group. The starting morale is double what it used to be and you can pay to raise your morale every turn so it shouldn’t be an issue. You are the first i’ve ever heard complain about this a simple  tc order will tell you who owns it

Algeria hasn’t complained about all the middle east countries dw on me that I’m not actively fighting, i expected it as part of routine game play 

Still not sure why I’m on your stupid list....

[ninja]

   That wasn’t hostile, it was commentary on how you blow a cede for defense into a morale

draining issue which is a problem in the game.  It has NOT been passed around like a hot potato! 

  You two, besmirched a player recently and that was hostile.  HE has protected his T/A and has not

broken any agreement with you.  Both groups have gone after the players in opposing groups not in

that ALL you specified.  And Yes, one of my allies is temporarily T/A’d to another country in a group of

3 that have just started to play the game.  Everyone is for getting new blood into the game and for

discussing matters that might bring about making Victory a more enjoyable game.  But some of your

actions/threads are besmirching players to the community without just cause...not critiquing the game.     

[rfouasnon]

It's awful having to wait for the turkey to finally be ready to eat . Happy Thanksgiving all !

Richard

[dageraad]

I can entirely agree with the spirit behind that.