Abusing the Cede Order

[Saint Michael]

1 hour ago, rfouasnon said:

It's awful having to wait for the turkey to finally be ready to eat . Happy Thanksgiving all !

Richard

Can you smell it? Have a very Happy Thanksgiving

[Predator]

How did i besmirch anyone?

I simply explained our alliances position and the fact anything we have done has been within the framework of what you see in any game of victory 

i havent judged or commented on their comments other than to ask why my country is listed as abusing the cede order when i have not used it

[Predator]

What country are you ninja?

[NCCorsair]

Alrighty guys, I figured I may as well chime in on this topic as my country is a major factor in the controversy.  It's been years since I last posted on the Forum and have never really been an active follower or contributor to this part of Victory.  That said, part of the reason for not engaging has been a lack of time but also an uncomfortableness with the tone of some conversations.

I am playing Egypt in Game 105, my name is Danny Rossmango.

I have been playing since Game 22, I believe, with a long hiatus until a few years ago.  This game has literally been part of my life for almost three decades.  It's a fantastic game!!  I truly believe that Russ and his friends who started this have contributed much to my life with its structure and detail and realism.  It's a frustrating, challenging, demanding and all-consuming contest of detail, diplomacy and competitive interaction with friends and strangers.  My son and co-workers have been watching, needling and questioning me about the piles of papers laid out and long conversations over the phone that they've observed over the years.  Finally, I've enticed a few of them to join in a game or two, but the results have unsurprisingly been mixed.  This is an old fashioned, bordering on obsolete, approach to entertainment to this new generation.  But they're playing nonetheless and enjoying many aspects of Victory.  My son enjoys the banter and mostly anonymous badgering/teasing/taunting forum aspect that most modern gamers partake in, but I've had to reel him back.  He wants to badger and have some fun but I've had to remind him that virtually all of the fellows playing Victory are old grumpy guys like me.  Whether that's true or not, it's my perception.

My son and son-in-law are literally amazed that I've spent so many years and dollars playing a game that I've been a winner of only ONE TIME.  Kind of sad, but perhaps also, a tribute to how grand a game this really is.  Not sure about many of you, but I cannot remember the last time I've played, that the impressive Schmitter group hasn't ended my attempt at make believe glory.  Pretty sure each of my last four campaigns have been thwarted by that fine team, but I return each time in hopes of defeating them, just once.

All that said, on to the situation at hand...

The cede location order.  I have used it many times, in many different circumstances.  I recognize completely the potential frustration that generally follows the use of this order.  I also agree that it can be abused, as I have abused it in the past.  It is a flawed rule with potentially game ending consequences.  I use it as a strategical opportunity, in hopes of trapping an army and postponing their movement for a turn or two.  That said, in times of dire emergency; such as when I'm about to lose, I have used it as a last ditch effort to survive.  I've accepted throughout the years that there are a few unwritten rules in Victory, mostly after conversations with teammates, and have tried to remain within the common boundaries.  As I stated earlier, I have not prowled the forums much and hence am uninformed as to many conflicts that have been parsed and argued out.  I am a baseball player and huge fan of the sport.  So many angry diatribes and potentially worse situations develop from the breaking and differing opinions of unwritten rules.  My goal is never to piss anyone off, ruin their experience or create ugliness.  This is a game, with distinct rules and I'm trying to win. 

Our community is now quite small and shrinking further, perhaps it's time to discuss concrete parameters for each new game, in hopes of improving the experience.  I don't know if that's possible or not.

If one of my allies or total allies decides that their ability to win necessitates breaking their agreements with me or feels that I have undermined the integrity of Victory I will accept the consequences.  Virtually everyone I've interacted with in Victory appears to be quite nice and well intentioned.  The list is long and let me say, I hope I have not been black-listed for my style of play, as now seems the case.  I've been betrayed in Victory before and probably will again.  It is a war "game", and if I become a liability and need to become the prey; ah well.  Like I said earlier, I've only won once and must not be very good at this so I guess I'll need to get smarter.  

I do apologize for the long-winded post.  Realistically thinking, it will not influence much but I did want to hopefully tone down the rhetoric and animosity that my actions have created.  Responses are expected and will be acknowledged.

 

[The Fremen]

Acknowledging that you abuse a certain aspect of the rules is ok in my book. However considering the amount of tactical recons( also an abused aspect of the game) that your side was doing, abusing a certain order seemed the intent all along. That isn’t so ok I’m my book.  There are many issues in Victory whose rules are pretty much static ( last overhaul back in 1995?) that players have learned to ‘game’.  Such is life really but until Russ can come up with a Victory II that addresses the short comings of the current rules I suggest a bit less chicanery and more strategic and tactical forethought that should lessen your need for it. I nice clean fight complete with a fair amount of propaganda posted here on the boards should make the game much more enjoyable for all. 

[Marklen X]

Tactical recons are a gamey tactic? I couldn't disagree more with that. It's impossible to have a game actually be completely realistic, so the CL order can be misused, but I see that as a minor inconvenience. I recall being blocked by your group in Iberia in game 101 by the CL order, and blaming myself for not DW all TA's. If you TA 1, you should probably TA all, standard Victory! tactic. 

Danny, I think your post was excellent, and I'll be happy to fight you or work with you in any game. 

[NCCorsair]

Thank you for stating that my acknowledgment of abusing the cede location made me ok in your book.  That was nice of you.  But dang, here I've gone and broken another "unwritten rule".  The numerous tactical recons.  I had not heard or imagined that this might be an issue; if I'd been on the forums more often perhaps my education would have been further along.  Apparently though, I'm not going to be ok in your book, after all, unless I play very much like you.  The chicanery you accuse me and my side of is, in my opinion, our tactical forethought.  Simple spying and recon, or so I thought.  How many tactical recons would be a legitimate, clean, strategic amount?  While engaging you, I (Egypt) will agree to whatever number you ask of me.  If you don't want to see any more cede locations, I (Egypt) will agree to that also.  I've already admitted that I don't win much in Victory and what's another loss or two anyway; especially if it comes from chicanery and abuse of unwritten rules.  I'm more interested in keeping the peace and not being a detriment of enjoyment to any remaining players of this fine game.  

I believed that Libya and my tactics were quite solid, even brilliant, considering the large group my country was rubbed up against.  But I do appreciate your schooling me on the more honorable approach to Victory.  I also hope that your team is not as sharp as the Schmitter group, because I know darn well that I cannot compete with them without all the chicanery I've deployed against you.  In fact, they've never mentioned anything about my style of play being unacceptable, perhaps because I'm such an unworthy opponent that they've never had to.  But if it bothered them I truly wish they would have, because like I've said numerous times now, I'm not out to piss anyone off.  If it appears to anyone on this string that I am hyper focused on that darn Schmitter team, well, I am.

I will do my best to win this game and perhaps even get to the spot where I'm also ok in your book, really.  There aren't many Victory lifers left, I'll do my part to keep the game enjoyable.  A clean fight, a little propaganda, and maybe shorter postings from here on out; hopefully.

[The Fremen]

2 hours ago, Marklen X said:

Tactical recons are a gamey tactic? I couldn't disagree more with that. It's impossible to have a game actually be completely realistic, so the CL order can be misused, but I see that as a minor inconvenience. I recall being blocked by your group in Iberia in game 101 by the CL order, and blaming myself for not DW all TA's. If you TA 1, you should probably TA all, standard Victory! tactic. 

Danny, I think your post was excellent, and I'll be happy to fight you or work with you in any game. 

The reason I say it’s gamey is that this order is impossible to counter and for some reason one of the techs was left without a unit that could exploit it. There are many examples of ‘fictitious’ units in the game for balance but this was overlooked it seems. 
 

Apparently those TR units with an actual TAS rating can bypass all FC’s or INT’s. This was obviously not intended but it’s part of the game and as such will enable these units to gather critical intel unimpeded. Seems like an exploit to me. 

[Predator]

I’ve played victory since 1995 and have had conversations with most people I have played with or against and You are the only person I've ever heard complain about gathering intel with recon planes

every player does it. If you don’t have a recon plane that can do it people do it with a single fighter or bomber group

what about the people that gather intel throughout the game with dead countries?

You can go on and on and nit pick this or that...

you guys weren’t complaining when it was saudi-uae-Iraq-jordan-syria against what you thought  would be just egypt and turkey

now that things aren't going so well your throwing accusations at players over what for years has been accepted game play

if these things were so out of line with your morales you should’ve approached the 105 community beforehand and addressed them

ti me all this complaining about trivial issues smacks of sore losers

22 minutes ago, The Fremen said:

The reason I say it’s gamey is that this order is impossible to counter and for some reason one of the techs was left without a unit that could exploit it. There are many examples of ‘fictitious’ units in the game for balance but this was overlooked it seems. 
 

Apparently those TR units with an actual TAS rating can bypass all FC’s or INT’s. This was obviously not intended but it’s part of the game and as such will enable these units to gather critical intel unimpeded. Seems like an exploit to me.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marklen X]

44 minutes ago, The Fremen said:

The reason I say it’s gamey is that this order is impossible to counter and for some reason one of the techs was left without a unit that could exploit it. There are many examples of ‘fictitious’ units in the game for balance but this was overlooked it seems. 
 

Apparently those TR units with an actual TAS rating can bypass all FC’s or INT’s. This was obviously not intended but it’s part of the game and as such will enable these units to gather critical intel unimpeded. Seems like an exploit to me. 

Sorry, but I've intercepted many TR's. Any country can do them, one fighter is all that's needed. TR is incredibly useful, while at the same time being incredibly realistic. I like you Fremen, but in this you're very wrong. 

[The Fremen]

24 minutes ago, Predator said:

I’ve played victory since 1995 and have had conversations with most people I have played with or against and You are the only person I've ever heard complain about gathering intel with recon planes

every player does it. If you don’t have a recon plane that can do it people do it with a single fighter or bomber group

what about the people that gather intel throughout the game with dead countries?

You can go on and on and nit pick this or that...

you guys weren’t complaining when it was saudi-uae-Iraq-jordan-syria against what you thought  would be just egypt and turkey

now that things aren't going so well your throwing accusations at players over what for years has been accepted game play

if these things were so out of line with your morales you should’ve approached the 105 community beforehand and addressed them

ti me all this complaining about trivial issues smacks of sore losers

 

 

 

 

 

Aren’t going so well? For who? Us? You obviously have been looking at the wrong turns. There will soon be many dead Egyptian divisions in what seems to be a victory for them. Baaaaahahabaha. And those Libyans aren’t doing to well either. There has been no defeat here so that sore loser comment is a bit premature.  At least I didn’t bow out from 102 when my airbases got absolutely smashed in Turkey. I recall something about massed airstrikes against some

Baltic States divisions that totally destroyed them. After that CR was left holding the bag.  Would that be considered a sore loser as well? As a very important  man said long ago let he who is without sin cast the first stone. 😉
 

I stand by that little ability of TR to completely bypass even the biggest INT or FC. Every once in a while a shipboard group will slip by but those 10 group TR’s will do it every time. If that’s the way it’s supppsed to be then fine not too big an issue but something that should be fixed... eventually. There is a laundry list of stuff. 

[The Fremen]

9 minutes ago, Marklen X said:

Sorry, but I've intercepted many TR's. Any country can do them, one fighter is all that's needed. TR is incredibly useful, while at the same time being incredibly realistic. I like you Fremen, but in this you're very wrong. 

Perhaps we have been extremely unfortunate with those INT’s. It’s been known to happen. 😁

[Predator]

Not sure what your talking about with the comment about airbases in turkey for 102...

i was Baltic and i was getting hit by five countries and sixteen bomber groups a turn. My ally in CR thought it was more important to fight the computer than help. I dropped because there was nothing i could do to stand up to that it was only a matter of a couple turns before i had nothing anyway

how is that being a sore loser!? 
 

All you’ve done on this forum is accuse people and criticize their game play. I really don't get it , if you hate everything everyone does to the point your bringing up the past why do you even play

All your negative energy is killing the vibe and its only like turn 9! Are we going to have to listen to this crap the whole game!?

[The Fremen]

12 hours ago, Predator said:

Not sure what your talking about with the comment about airbases in turkey for 102...

i was Baltic and i was getting hit by five countries and sixteen bomber groups a turn. My ally in CR thought it was more important to fight the computer than help. I dropped because there was nothing i could do to stand up to that it was only a matter of a couple turns before i had nothing anyway

how is that being a sore loser!? 
 

All you’ve done on this forum is accuse people and criticize their game play. I really don't get it , if you hate everything everyone does to the point your bringing up the past why do you even play

All your negative energy is killing the vibe and its only like turn 9! Are we going to have to listen to this crap the whole game!?

You don’t have to listen to it yes? Just ignore it if you don’t like it. If I see something I say something that’s just me. 
 

negative vibes?? Using a phrase from a famous person I have to say.  “Come on Man!” 

[Rednas]

Blablabla and more blablabla....and than I could not win the game because all the others used the rules, which all can use btw, to their benefit because I did not think about it or did not know...or did not want to use them out of moral objections...

So...I do not know what is this all about...but to me ....wining about....about what again...oh the rules. I play the game 25+ years now. So accept them, program Victory 2...or look for another just as special game as this is. Good luck. 

Happy Gaming everyone. 

Greetings Rednas.