Research tree - Installations

[Guest Zy'lar'isa]

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

(When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults.)

Must be a flag waving member of the NCA.......didn't you have a couple of rock slate last time I saw ya?

 

 

Queen Bitch Zy'lar'isa of The Nest of Zylaria

[Sha'thar of the Gosht Kohr]

Sha'thar hmms.

 

Well, in my opinion, one thing that sets this game apart from many others is how easy it is to develop your empire's 'feel.' and the various tech trees insure, initially, that almost every position will be different from most others.

 

I'm not out to conquer the galaxy, in this game. It's my opinion that I'll spend too much money in pursuing this game to end it battling with my neighbors. Like a number of 'massively multiplayer' games out there, this has more the feeling of an open-ended roll-playing game. We're not playing Victory here, after all.

 

So I feel that the more different the various positions, the more quality the interactions, and the greater opportunity for in-game trade. Why give someone the information as to how to build a tech or installation, when you can build them for each other in-game?

 

I'm also pretty sure that Pete and Russ didn't spend what must have been days, weeks or months creating the tech tree just so that everyone could end up with the same technology, even in the early stages of the game. I'll be so bold as to suggest that they may even had -wanted- empires to develop along their own lines. Arrogant cat!

 

But this cat -can- take constructive critisism, and realizes that equally important is what someone does with the technology when they get it. There's certainly enough flexibility in ship design to insure that every empire could and probably will have ships different from each other's. even though the technology might be the same. Ratios of production on homeworlds will differ too. And some empires will focus on building armies as well as constructing fleets. So perhaps tech sharing is less important than she holds it to be.

 

Maybe she should just curl up with some catnip for a time!

[USMC_POINTMAN]

Queen Sha'thar,

 

I believe that you will be a great trade partner.

But in the end.

There will be wars. Many wars. No one knows who those will be starting them.

But for some it will be trade of others the battles.

So pleaze do not put your head to the catnip, when the time comes. Or you maybe someones nice little pet, for the new ruler of your home would.

[DWillard]

...Why give someone the information as to how to build a tech or installation, when you can build them for each other in-game?...

There is no way to trade installations or the ability to build them. It helps to have your facts straight before you try to present an opinion.

 

The only thing you can trade are items. And the only items that will be worth trading are mostly weapons and other ship systems used for combat. Yes, I said combat.

 

Here's a question for you. If RTG intended this to be SIM Galactica or SIM Space or some other type of SIM game where you just peacefully trudge along and grow your citites and industries, then why all the weapons? What are they for? My guess would be to fight with, but then again I'm just a simple minded warmonger.

 

I'm not saying you can't play this game how you want. If that means you don't want to "fight" then fine, don't. The game is big enough for all styles of play. But I'm about sick and tired of people turning up their noses and looking down on those that actually want to use just of few of the huge number of combat items available in the game to do a little fighting. I'm tired of this attitude that "I'm a better person because I want to pursue the peaceful avenues of the game and I want to roleplay." That's a bunch of BS. Yes, I'll be looking for allies and a couple of select trading partners. Because I want to fight doesn't mean I'm frothing at the mouth and want to attack the first neighbor I encounter. (But if that's what someone wants to do, then I say go for it. It will make the game exciting and worth paying for). But at some point, you are going to have all the trading partners you can handle. What a freaking boring game this would be if we all ended up peaceful pals and traded iron back and forth till we start puking it up. Get real. Open your eyes. This game allows for combat and a lot of it.

 

And I'm sure that Pete and Russ didn't spend what must have been days, weeks, or months coming up with all of these weapons just to have everyone end up pals and no one fight.

[Sha'thar of the Gosht Kohr]

Actually, there -are- ways of building installations for folks. Some of them have been discussed in this forum.

 

As for the number of weapons... yes, there are a lot of them. But just as in real life, none of them do a thing unless someone pulls the trigger. And weapons can be used defensively as well as offensively. But that's niether here nor there.

 

There are more potential trade goods than there are weapons.

 

I don't think I've ever said in any post that there would not be combat in the game. I'm arming accordingly, not because I plan on going to war, but because I expect that there will come a time when I have to defend the Empire and my allies.

 

I do worry about those who desire to use weapons simply because they have them, but that's just this cat's opinion.

 

I don't believe I have ever said that I think less of people who use war as a strategy to play SN:ROTE. I admit to being initially concerned about meeting someone on turn 5 who immediately attacked, but given what we now suspect about the -size- of the universe, this appears less and less likely.

 

I think we should realize the possibility that, because of its scope and open-ended nature, SN:ROTE is for all intents and purposes unwinable. Ask folks how SN II ended.

 

This -is- actually less of a game and more of a simulation. But I would be interested in hearing Pete and Russ's opinions on this subject?

 

-Sha'thar

[RTGPete]

But I would be interested in hearing Pete and Russ's opinions on this subject?

 

I think you guys have done a pretty good job of covering the topic

 

Supernova was meant to allow for a variety of play styles: industrial development, exploration, research, war, trade or whatever each player might dream up. It allows for huge wars or endless industrial expansion if you like. It's a deliberately long-term empire-building game.

 

I could have put more effort into allowing fast-paced combat right at the beginning, but was concerned that this would have taken away from the economic and exploration aspects of the game. Can't have it all when trying to cover so many bases

 

I wouldn't mind designing a fast-paced over-the-top space conflict game to attract players who want it - but that's an entirely different beast. Such a game would certainly be much simpler to play and have far less industrial development requirements. Think of Victory! The Battle for Europe: you can hammer your neighbor into submission starting on turn 3, and there is no shortage of potential targets right from the start

 

Supernova lets players who want to turtle up and develop their industrial might for years...do just that. There are more players than you might think who don't contact anybody and just play the game for the sheer fun of it. Maybe they'll fight someday, but then again maybe not. With aggressive exploration it's not all that hard to meet other players (and attack them <muahaha>). However, if an empire wants to hide, there's no requirement to send out scouts that might be <gasp> spotted by aliens.

 

On the war end, there is a certain satisfaction to be gained by building up a gigantic navy and rolling in to crush a neighbor with overwhelming might. Such a fleet might take months or even a year or more to build up - which favors long term planning, since the defender might well be months behind in his defense construction and not even know it In a more rapid attack type of game, combat would be far more common, encouraging everybody to build some sort of warfleet and forget about that long-term industrial development foolishness lest they be caught unprepared <gulp>

[hobknob]

Not to put it too finely, but I have played my multiple positions since the very start or close to it. In that time, over a year for all positions, I have been able to gather a great deal of information about the tech tree. Nobody had the information when we all started so we had to go out and get it the old fashioned way. We traded, experimented and in some cases wasted very precious SRP's to get some of that information. There were many positions that were created, used and dropped, all at some expense. To expect that this hard gained information to be freely posted on the board is asking a bit much IMHO.

 

There have been many posts by veteran players with lots of information that indicate a willingness to share some of that data. I have done this myself and those that have contacted me have gotten good return for their effort, I believe anyway. There are also alliances out there and information sharing groups that offer information for a price of one kind or another. If your willing to pay the price then the inforamtion you want and more is usually available. Again, it isn't likely to be posted on the board.

 

Some will argue that you need the data ASAP incase you run into a veteran empire. The reality is just about the opposite. Most veteran positions are at a bit of a disadvantage since they started without any of the year + information that all new positions can start with. In my own positions my newer positions have passed my core positions in just about every aspect. In addition to this you are not likely to actually run into anybody for many moons unless you are very lucky/unlucky as you see it.

 

As information becomes dated and thereby fairly common you will see folks posting stuff here on the board. You will also see really weird and different things posted in whole or part. That does tend to get the imagination going without giving away any great secrets.

 

On installations it is often very difficult to determine exactly what the requirements are in the first place. I believe that Pete mentioned that an improved INST may be in the works that would alleviate some of that confusion, however until that time it is still a great deal of guess work.

 

On a final note, let me echo Sha'thar of the Gosht Kohr's comments that there is much more information exchange between emails than on the board. Whether it is an indivdual that offers the information or an alliance take your pick. Make use of the various resources out there and you will likely get close to what you want if not more.

 

Well, that horse is probably hamburger by now so I will get off the old soap box.

 

[Sha'thar of the Gosht Kohr]

Sha'thar pounces on the now defunct horse!

 

( Insert Wild Discovery documentary footage here. )

[DWillard]

As information becomes dated and thereby fairly common you will see folks posting stuff here on the board. You will also see really weird and different things posted in whole or part. That does tend to get the imagination going without giving away any great secrets.

My point exactally. I'm not asking or expecting people to put the info on the board. I just prefer them to be honest as to why they don't.

[RTGPete]

On installations it is often very difficult to determine exactly what the requirements are in the first place. I believe that Pete mentioned that an improved INST may be in the works that would alleviate some of that confusion, however until that time it is still a great deal of guess work.

 

The catch has been that end_turn_adjustments is out of space, requiring moving code around to other procedures to make room for the free INST when you get a new installation. I think I've got some more space now, and have added in the INST code for newly-researched installations. Testing it - hopefully all is ok and you'll get those free INST results starting with this turn cycle

 

Pre-reqs will list out on all INST results as well, so you'll save orders and get more data as well

[PhaseDragon]

SWEET!!!!!! First Rate!!!!!! Excellent!!!!!!

[DWillard]

Sha-thar -

 

 

 

...this has more the feeling of an open-ended roll-playing game...

 

Open-ended? Yes. RPG? Not really. I think this game has more the feeling of a science fiction strategy game of epic proportions and the feeling of a never-ending strategic scale space power game. Why do I get that feeling? Because that's how RTG marketed the game on their flyer. Those are quotes from the flyer. There is not one mention of this being a RPG.

 

That being said, I readily agree that there are opportunites to role-play OOG (on this board or OOG interaction with other empires). And obviously this game is so huge and complex to allow for many different styles of play and the personalization of each empire. But again, that doesn't make it a RPG. Had RTG marketed the game as a RPG, I think there would be a lot of dissapointed players and a lot of complaining that SN is not a RPG.

 

 

 

 

Actually, there -are- ways of building installations for folks. Some of them have been discussed in this forum.

 

I could be wrong, but I think that if RTG intended us to trade/build installations for each other, there would be an easier or more direct way than having to bend, stretch, and exploit the rules and the intent of the game. Leaving a pop center (or what ever) undefend so an ally can come along and take it at no expense is one of the oldest, and hardest to prevent, exploits in PBM games. I don't doubt that I'm in the minority here, but I consider that cheating.

 

And how exactly does this method of obtaining installations from an ally fit in with your ideas of role-playing? If someone is role-playing a pacifist or a peaceful empire, should they be allowed to attack an ally's undefended pop group?

 

When Pete gets around to enhancing player to player diplomacy, maybe he can put up some obstacles to this kind of exploit. Something like if you attack another empire (be it a ship, army, pop group or whatever), that should be an automatic declaration of war and cancellation of any other agreements. Furthermore, it should take a long time before you can work back up the diplomatic ladder to more prosporous and advantageous levels. Lots of possibilites here.

 

 

 

 

There are more potential trade goods than there are weapons.

 

Obvioulsy. Because every weapon is a potential trade good, all it takes is one more item for there to be more trade goods than weapons. What I actually said was, "the only items that will be worth trading are mostly weapons and ship systems used for combat". (And yes, combat can be offensive or defensive). Maybe I'm being short sighted here so if you have some examples of items that will be worthwhile to trade that don't fit my description, I would love to know what they are.

 

 

 

 

I don't believe I have ever said that I think less of people who use war as a strategy to play SN:ROTE.

 

Maybe not in those exact words. But here are two statements from you in the same post that you deny making any such statements.

I do worry about those who desire to use weapons simply because they have them

As for the number of weapons... yes, there are a lot of them. But just as in real life, none of them do a thing unless someone pulls the trigger.

 

I'm sorry, but if you see it or not, these types of statements strongly suggest that you look down on the use of weapons by players that want combat. You seem to think that I need a better, or more moral, or more politically correct, or some other reason to use weapons. Simply having an abundance of weapons available to use in an empire-building power game is not good enough.

 

And what's with the comparisons to real life? "Just as in real life..." What the heck is that supposed to mean? It sounds like you are making another moral judgement. Are you trying to say that all of these weapons were put in the game as some type of test of our character? Just as it's wrong to actually pull the trigger in real life, it's wrong to pull the trigger in this game? What does the use of weapons in real life have to do with the use of weapons in this game? If you want to make a "real life" observation, how about this -- some people have a problem separating it from a game.

 

 

 

I think we should realize the possibility that, because of its scope and open-ended nature, SN:ROTE is for all intents and purposes unwinable. Ask folks how SN II ended.

 

Why do you assume that those who are looking to fight are trying to conquer the whole galaxy? And here's another thought. Though SN III is "unwinable" (at least by the definition of one person/alliance being able to conquer the entire galaxy), it certainly is "loseable". Just ask the folks that got put out of SN II.

 

 

 

 

This -is- actually less of a game and more of a simulation.

 

No, this is a game. To quote the flyer again, "Supernove is an interactive game of galactic conquest, colonization, and exploration..." "We provide a...complete space fantasy enviroment..."

 

Maybe that's where the people that can't separate a game from reality are getting confused. They think this game is some type of simulation of how we should be living our real lives.

[PhaseDragon]

A little harsh but well put.

[EternusIV]

Well - I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" answer to what SNROTE has become. I can say this: I LOVE the open-endedness of this game.

 

For some, it is a RPG - for others, a wargame - for others still, an industrial sim - for small plantlike, breed-like-rabbits-on-viagra-with-no-SRPs, a nifty colonization/exploration game. (IMHO, no need to split hairs b/w 'game' and 'sim'...even 'sim' games are still 'games' in my book)

 

In the end, SNROTE is what players make it. That's not too profound of a statement....but from what I've literally SEEN so far - initial contact has resulted in peaceful negotiation and talk of trading technologies. (Speaking of which - I have to get back to that stack of emails on research from neighbors/friends...I'll get to it, I promise!)

 

Bold prediction: War will not break out until players are confident enough in their technology - and have reliable intel as to homeworld locations - to engage in war. Yes - we have lots of weapons....but you don't want to go bullying blindly in space about with inferior weapons.

 

As for sharing the tech tree - I think that behind the scenes, players are answering their own curiousities the best they can. Heck, ISIS is still around aint it? Others have been super gracious in sharing advanced tech in order to speed up contact or help new players.

 

My horse's back is only strong enough to carry six short paragraphs today.

[ShadowKitsune]

A lot of the debate between whether SN:ROTE is a game or simulation hinges on how you define the terms: game and simulation.

 

For me, the term simulation implies the attempt to model something that occurs in a natural environment in a controlled, artificial one in order to better understand the natural enviroment.

 

The term game, on the other hand, implies a structured entertainment that one participates in for enjoyment.

 

That makes SN:ROTE a game for me.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

ISIS side-bar - we're still around. Research isn't as fast as it once was due to the increased costs of advanced technologies and that some of us find a lot of resources in our explorations (Advanced Plantfoods, anyone?).

 

-SK