Calling Player 3535

[WKE235]

Believe what you want MM .. you always do anyway and never let facts stand in the way. I will add that my fleets did NOT have itchy trigger fingers and were not set to fire on sight. NSI opened fire on my ship as it came through the WP, and my ship acted in self-defense. If the NSI had not fired, there would have been NO BATTLE. Fact.

 

And of course, I remind NSI (if they even look at this board ... I swear I would have an easier time getting in contact with the Pope than with NSI) I am open to any contact by NSI and discussions on borders, trade, etcetera... And my fleets are not set to fire on others. A good example is when my armed pathfinder encountered an NSI fleet scout over a world. I did not attack. I went happily on my way continuing my explorations.

[EternusIV]

WKE

 

I have to admit that your patience MUCH better than mine:

 

1) You offered a truce and tried to contact him

2) He ignored you

3) You have laid off your weapons

4) He comes through that WP with weapons blaring....

 

Even sunflowers would have to reconsider options for peace under such circumstances

[MadMartinB]

Eternus -

 

Item 4 is false. I believe WK went through and the poor defenseless NSI tried to defend their territorial integrity.

[WKE235]

That's correct. I went through the WP, not him. His ships did open fire as I came through, and I acted in self-defense.

 

The most amazing thing is, here NSI had brought up to the WP a second Pup E Lt Cruiser and a fleet scout with a Pioneer on board (from the original 1 Pup E my poor pathfinders ran into). His goal was obviously to scout the WP and then ... what, send through the scout? Maybe one or both cruisers?

 

OH .. and why did I send through pathfinders on two different turns? Fact -- I have two WP's that lead into the star to the same WP exit. One of them is obviously a one-way route. I thought I had discovered a second WP into the star and sent through the pathfinder and --surprise--! the same exit point as before and the same ugly Pup E Lt. Cruiser. Damn annoying.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

The Star League just have to add to this.

 

Being the ultimate harbingers of peace and believing totally in the tenets of the 'White Knight' that we purport to be, we have and will fight for reasonable rights of exploration. All our Fleets are on 'R' orders and hope to stay that way (well apart from the 'Q's that still remain from the beginning!).

 

We are opposed, and have repeatedly said so, to the xenophobic attitudes of some races. We are firmly against any 'shoot first' policy. This may indeed leave us vulnerable to the nastier elements of galactic civilisation, but in so doing will right prevail.

 

However, we therefore expect and encourage those characteristics in others.

 

If we scout a system and find other races (and boy, we are hoping! ) we will do our utmost to communicate with them. If we find their fleets guarding a WP on this side we will make every effort to find out from them if they mind us going though. However, if we scout a WP and arrive the other side only to be visciously destroyed then we are expected to respond.

 

Such an act is an uneqivocal and overt act of war and xenophobia. Such behaviour is intolerable and will be rooted out from the galaxy. Peaceable contact is fine, even including restrictions on travel until intentions are proven in deed. No empire will ever need go in fear of meeting the Star League in space. But, this ideal can only be expounded from a position of safety and strength.

 

Whilst we accept the accident of the unfortunate WARP order, we fully support the Concordium's right to have executed the order anyway. They were attacked and are now only defending themselves. We hope they will continue to make every effort in contacting Empire #3535 and hold ourselves ready to assist in any diplomatic support desired.

 

We remain committed to the establishment of peace and the removal of piracy throughout known space.

 

Lord High Seneschal to Ur-Lord Tedric

 

Ruler of the Star League and proud member of the Galactic Star League.

[Azuth]

We are opposed, and have repeatedly said so, to the xenophobic attitudes of some races. We are firmly against any 'shoot first' policy. This may indeed leave us vulnerable to the nastier elements of galactic civilisation, but in so doing will right prevail.

 

However, we therefore expect and encourage those characteristics in others.

 

If we scout a system and find other races (and boy, we are hoping!  ) we will do our utmost to communicate with them. If we find their fleets guarding a WP on this side we will make every effort to find out from them if they mind us going though. However, if we scout a WP and arrive the other side only to be visciously destroyed then we are expected to respond.

 

Such an act is an uneqivocal and overt act of war and xenophobia. Such behaviour is intolerable and will be rooted out from the galaxy.

 

BEHOLD the arrogance of the GSL, the so called "White Hats".

 

How dare you dictate how one defends their systems! Who do the GSL think they are? So what if some species out there ARE xenophobic in nature. It is their right to be xenophobic and to protect their systems from intruders any way they want, and if they don't want any outside contact, and someone sends a fleet and it gets blown apart that should be enough communication there indicating "No Trespassers Allowed".

 

Now if another fleet is sent to seek revenge for their own "intruding fleet" that got blown up, then you are the ones committing an act of war. Then all shall see your true color....and it won't be White.

 

Grand Mistress of the Lords of C.H.A.O.S.

[AKO]

I am wondering what WKE is going to do next. Maybe that shows how he would answer some of the questions below and maybe shows how the GSL would answer the questions below (although we do not consider actions taken by a member as an example of actions that are endorsed by the alliance it is a part of).

 

From the discussion above we draw the conclusion that NSI does not want WKE to move further. This is based on the presumption that otherwise NSI wouldn't have placed some defenses on his side of the warp point.

Maybe NSI remains incommunicado out of fear or whatever personal reason.

 

Is xenophobia a bad thing or considered prudent?

 

Is building up forces when you haven't met any other empire yet and defending warp points with naval forces xenophobic by defition?

 

Should remaining silent be considered as hostile or as neutral? (I do not regard it as friendly)

 

Is it acceptable to move further into a silent empires space once a silent empires defensive forces at a certain warp point have been destroyed?

 

Is it acceptable for a white hat to take a neutral planet or empire by force?

 

I am very curious to find out what the main alliances and any others think about this.

 

Kind regards,

[Ur Lord Tedric]

STOP!

 

BEHOLD the arrogance of the GSL, the so called "White Hats". 

 

How dare you dictate how one defends their systems! Who do the GSL think they are? So what if some species out there ARE xenophobic in nature. It is their right to be xenophobic and to protect their systems from intruders any way they want, and if they don't want any outside contact, and someone sends a fleet and it gets blown apart that should be enough communication there indicating "No Trespassers Allowed".

 

Read the post again, please.

 

The Star League are not the GSL - they are an empire who is a member of that illustrious organisation.

 

One of the main tenets of the GSL is to promote peace and trade throughout the galaxy. The only way to do this is to establish relations and explore.

 

No empire need go in fear of any member of the GSL. The GSL will deal honestly with any empires they encounter. If asked not to enter their systems, then they will not do so.

 

Any xenophobic race can easily prevent a GSL member from entering it's systems by sending those system names to any member of the GSL. These will be entered into the Star Master's tables and, on discovery by a GSL member, will be marked as claimed by a xenophobic race.

 

<OOC> Now I must refer back to your message and point out the logical issue. Anyone playing a xenophobic race surely has a real problem. They have to accept that they are a plain and simple nemesis for every other empire in the galaxy and will expect to be exterminated. They cannot co-operate with any empire, cannot be a member of any alliance and will have a very lonely existence.

 

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to play a xenophobic race unless they were determined to eradicated everyone else from the galaxy - Borg or Death Machine style. Either way, xenophobes, and not just people frightened by contact, will have to expect to be the objects of firm policy.

 

The Star League will remain true to their word and will meet in peace.

 

Mark & The Lord High Seneschal!

[Clan Elder 'Keen]

<OOC> Now I must refer back to your message and point out the logical issue.  Anyone playing a xenophobic race surely has a real problem.  They have to accept that they are a plain and simple nemesis for every other empire in the galaxy and will expect to be exterminated.  They cannot co-operate with any empire, cannot be a member of any alliance and will have a very lonely existence.

 

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to play a xenophobic race unless they were determined to eradicated everyone else from the galaxy - Borg or Death Machine style.  Either way, xenophobes, and not just people frightened by contact, will have to expect to be the objects of firm policy.

But the empire in question has not done anything to prove itself "xenophobic". Defensive? Most likely. Isolationist? Apparently. But certainly nothing so far worthy of the scorn of the largest alliance in the galaxy.

[woolfe99]

<OOC> Now I must refer back to your message and point out the logical issue.  Anyone playing a xenophobic race surely has a real problem.  They have to accept that they are a plain and simple nemesis for every other empire in the galaxy and will expect to be exterminated.  They cannot co-operate with any empire, cannot be a member of any alliance and will have a very lonely existence.

 

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to play a xenophobic race unless they were determined to eradicated everyone else from the galaxy - Borg or Death Machine style.  Either way, xenophobes, and not just people frightened by contact, will have to expect to be the objects of firm policy.

But the empire in question has not done anything to prove itself "xenophobic". Defensive? Most likely. Isolationist? Apparently. But certainly nothing so far worthy of the scorn of the largest alliance in the galaxy.

Correct. The confusion here seems to spring from differing interpretations of the term "xenophobe." A xenophobe could be a race that does not want contact with other empires, does not want any empire entering their territory, but has no intent to encroach on the territory of others. Or a xenophobe could be someone hostile to every other race, bent on exterminating them. The GSL has no opposition to xenophobe type 1. People are free to run their races as they see fit in terms of being isolationist or not, and free to protect their own territory. It's xenophobe type 2 that's the issue, and not only for the GSL, but should be for everyone else as well.

 

This particular case we agree does not necessarily involve a xenophone type 2. At this point, there is insufficient evidence to support either theory. That's why every attempt is being made at diplomatic resolution.

 

- woolfe

[MadMartinB]

What I find amazing is the quote below which represents the GSL and their mentality. I effect, Mr. Hygate is showing us that in order to work with the GSL you have to provide your system names. AMAZING!

 

So here is the GSL at work.

Send a pathfinder through. Lose it. Hmmmmmm. Well I'll try to get a a hold of them. Player does not respond. OK. Well he has not given us, the GSL, a list of star systems he owns (I wonder why...maybe it leads to his home and the "white hats" would just "check it out") and oh...he hasn't told me not to enter so I guess I'll send a cruiser through.

 

Maybe He is a paper player (there are some) and does not come on the boards.

 

Maybe he is a foreign player and does not want to incur long distance charges

 

Maybe he/she just got your MESS (sicne it got activated last turn) and is wondering what to do but is a deployed soldier in Iraq.

 

Many possibilities but I guess it just is better to jump battle ships in and then plead ignorance latter.

 

 

 

 

Read the post again, please.

 

The Star League are not the GSL - they are an empire who is a member of that illustrious organisation.

 

One of the main tenets of the GSL is to promote peace and trade throughout the galaxy. The only way to do this is to establish relations and explore.

 

No empire need go in fear of any member of the GSL. The GSL will deal honestly with any empires they encounter. If asked not to enter their systems, then they will not do so.

 

Any xenophobic race can easily prevent a GSL member from entering it's systems by sending those system names to any member of the GSL. These will be entered into the Star Master's tables and, on discovery by a GSL member, will be marked as claimed by a xenophobic race.

 

<OOC> Now I must refer back to your message and point out the logical issue. Anyone playing a xenophobic race surely has a real problem. They have to accept that they are a plain and simple nemesis for every other empire in the galaxy and will expect to be exterminated. They cannot co-operate with any empire, cannot be a member of any alliance and will have a very lonely existence.

 

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to play a xenophobic race unless they were determined to eradicated everyone else from the galaxy - Borg or Death Machine style. Either way, xenophobes, and not just people frightened by contact, will have to expect to be the objects of firm policy.

 

The Star League will remain true to their word and will meet in peace.

 

Mark & The Lord High Seneschal!

[Ur Lord Tedric]

{After a short interlude for the Conclave of the Star League, whilst Ur-Lord Tedric himself carved the gorgeous portion of that supreme delicacy - Roast Beef}

 

It is the Lords of C.H.A.O.S (abbreviation, please? ), who were castigating us (and quite wrongly the GSL) for our behaviour towards xenophobes. The case in point, the Concordium's attempts to contact #3535, are not to be confused.

 

We are quite aware of the jealousy that pervades these regions of sub-space, but the members of the GSL that communicate here will stand, we are sure, as Scylla against the waves of fear and ridicule, let alone bad rhetoric :lol: of the darker members of the SN fraternity.

 

Let us be quite specific, rather than try to graffiti over the white walls of the GSL.

 

The Concordium have made every effort to communicate with the NSI (#3535). They have done so even after being the victims of unwarranted aggression. We accept completely the Concordium's rendition of the incident and know that they were merely placing their own defences. The fact of a mis-given WARP order is quite acceptable and who here can honestly say that they have never mis-typed an order (I wish! )

 

They would have had every right to enter the WP anyway. Who is to deny them that right? If the NSI had asked them not to, we know that the Concordium would not have done so. But complete silence by the NSI, especially after firing on Concordium ships, is itself a deliberate act.

 

The view from here is quite simple and, I am sure, applies equally to my GSL brothers:

 

We seek peace and trade - we welcome empires in hope of good relations - we are potential friends and allies - deal with us in good faith and you will find honour returned - we respect the rights of all empires to HW+2 systems out - speak to us when we meet and tell us your claims - but attack us and we must defend ourselves.

 

We accept that there are those who will attempt to tarnish us, but it will not work. We know there are those who are jealous and even afraid, because they know we will stand against them. But to those who come in peace, either to trade, to ensure their security, to establish borders, to be left alone, or even to join, we will act with honour and steadfastness.

 

Lord High Seneschal to Ur-Lord Tedric

[woolfe99]

What I find amazing is the quote below which represents the GSL and their mentality. I effect, Mr. Hygate is showing us that in order to work with the GSL you have to provide your system names. AMAZING!

 

So here is the GSL at work.

Send a pathfinder through. Lose it. Hmmmmmm. Well I'll try to get a a hold of them. Player does not respond. OK. Well he has not given us, the GSL, a list of star systems he owns (I wonder why...maybe it leads to his home and the "white hats" would just "check it out") and oh...he hasn't told me not to enter so I guess I'll send a cruiser through.

 

Maybe He is a paper player (there are some) and does not come on the boards.

 

Maybe he is a foreign player and does not want to incur long distance charges

 

Maybe he/she just got your MESS (sicne it got activated last turn) and is wondering what to do but is a deployed soldier in Iraq.

 

Many possibilities but I guess it just is better to jump battle ships in and then plead ignorance latter.

 

 

 

 

Read the post again, please.

 

The Star League are not the GSL - they are an empire who is a member of that illustrious organisation.

 

One of the main tenets of the GSL is to promote peace and trade throughout the galaxy. The only way to do this is to establish relations and explore.

 

No empire need go in fear of any member of the GSL. The GSL will deal honestly with any empires they encounter. If asked not to enter their systems, then they will not do so.

 

Any xenophobic race can easily prevent a GSL member from entering it's systems by sending those system names to any member of the GSL. These will be entered into the Star Master's tables and, on discovery by a GSL member, will be marked as claimed by a xenophobic race.

 

<OOC> Now I must refer back to your message and point out the logical issue. Anyone playing a xenophobic race surely has a real problem. They have to accept that they are a plain and simple nemesis for every other empire in the galaxy and will expect to be exterminated. They cannot co-operate with any empire, cannot be a member of any alliance and will have a very lonely existence.

 

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to play a xenophobic race unless they were determined to eradicated everyone else from the galaxy - Borg or Death Machine style. Either way, xenophobes, and not just people frightened by contact, will have to expect to be the objects of firm policy.

 

The Star League will remain true to their word and will meet in peace.

 

Mark & The Lord High Seneschal!

Being a former GSL member yourself, I'm sure you're aware that the GSL has no policy of requiring non-members to provide system information. However, if you want to claim territorial rights over a system and avoid confusion and unintended encroachment, it does help to identify the systems that you claim. This has nothing to do with the GSL. It's just common sense.

 

As a side note Martin, your personal grudge against the GSL is starting to become comedic.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

What I find amazing is the quote below which represents the GSL and their mentality. I effect, Mr. Hygate is showing us that in order to work with the GSL you have to provide your system names. AMAZING! 

 

So here is the GSL at work.

Send a pathfinder through. Lose it. Hmmmmmm. Well I'll try to get a a hold of them. Player does not respond. OK. Well he has not given us, the GSL, a list of star systems he owns (I wonder why...maybe it leads to his home and the "white hats" would just "check it out") and oh...he hasn't told me not to enter so I guess I'll send a cruiser through.

 

Maybe He is a paper player (there are some) and does not come on the boards.

 

Maybe he is a foreign player and does not want to incur long distance charges

 

Maybe he/she just got your MESS (sicne it got activated last turn) and is wondering what to do but is a deployed soldier in Iraq.

 

Many possibilities but I guess it just is better to jump battle ships in and then plead ignorance latter.

 

Pathetic isn't it! :lol:

 

They say that hell hath no fury than a woman scorned, but it's sadder to see a grown man whimper.

 

We perhaps shouldn't respond to such a diatribe, but the GSL were impugned once more by the sad little boy who wants to make this personal.

 

All players of this game have choices. The NSI chose not to communicate, not to warn and to have his fleets on an ROE that caused conflict.

 

Most of the other examples quoted above were real straw grasping, but the first utterly failed. Players who don't want people to enter their systems have two, and only two, choices rather than aggression:

 

1) They can tell people of their systems in advance, as many have done and yes, anyone can tell the GSL their system names so that they are not entered without knowledge, because the GSL check and have a good databse going.

 

or

 

2) They can station sentinels outside those systems and request contact.

 

And before it's brought up, they can station sentinels inside the WPs if they can't actually survey them, but keep them on Q or R orders if they don't want to attack.

 

Lastly, although we're sure we'll be back, we wish to unequivocally define our version of xenophobe for the posts above.

 

An isolationist is an empire that seeks to keep his empire separate and secure from interlopers.

 

A xenophobe makes no attempts at contact and has a shoot first policy with the intent to exterminate.

 

We, and I sure any GSL member, will respect the borders of isolationists and still hope to have good relationships with them.

 

Xenophobes are a clear and present danger and will have to be dealt with as such.

 

Lord High Seneschal to Ur-Lord Tedric

[Kurassier]

The Concordium have made every effort to communicate with the NSI (#3535). They have done so even after being the victims of unwarranted aggression. We accept completely the Concordium's rendition of the incident and know that they were merely placing their own defences. The fact of a mis-given WARP order is quite acceptable and who here can honestly say that they have never mis-typed an order (I wish! )

 

They would have had every right to enter the WP anyway. Who is to deny them that right? If the NSI had asked them not to, we know that the Concordium would not have done so. But complete silence by the NSI, especially after firing on Concordium ships, is itself a deliberate act.

 

The view from here is quite simple and, I am sure, applies equally to my GSL brothers:

 

We seek peace and trade - we welcome empires in hope of good relations - we are potential friends and allies - deal with us in good faith and you will find honour returned - we respect the rights of all empires to HW+2 systems out - speak to us when we meet and tell us your claims - but attack us and we must defend ourselves.

 

We accept that there are those who will attempt to tarnish us, but it will not work. We know there are those who are jealous and even afraid, because they know we will stand against them. But to those who come in peace, either to trade, to ensure their security, to establish borders, to be left alone, or even to join, we will act with honour and steadfastness."

QUOTE]

 

I've stayed out of most of these war of words, but frankly, I'm bored at the moment and thought I'd comment. In reviewing your words on the boards, you are the "harbinger" of peace, AS YOU SEE IT. You talk of peace, (and probably are sincere) yet believe that every country must play by your rules. To say "they have every right to enter the WP", is quite arrogant. Yes, I would agree that I believe that I can go through an WP I find. There are however consequences for all actions, including moving through WP's. If I understand this thread, (and please feel free to let me know if I am wrong) WKE moved a pathfinder through a WP and got blown up. Since he had no contact, he moved a bigger ship through the WP (accident or not is irrelevant), obviously to blow up anybody that fired on him. (which he knew was very likely, because of a prior encounter)

Sounds to me like WKE is FORCING HIS WAY upon the NSI.

 

I personally will attempt to contact anybody I find. ( in fact have done so and set up a 'border' with that empire) However, I have many systems I consider EXCLUSIVLEY SABELI, and anybody that enters them will be attacked. (and I see no need to post the names, because if you find them, you will be attacked, and you can't avoid them until you go through the WP. Therefore I will naturally take it that if my explorer vessels (which are all set to fire ONLY if fired upon) are attacked, that the alien doesn't want me there. Logic dictates to me then, that if I send a bigger and better armed ship to that same location, that war will commence.

Therefore my logic tells me that WKE, in fact, caused war with the NSI, by moving a bigger ship through the WP. (many wars have been started by accident)

That is not an act of someone who is a harbinger of peace.

 

Now, that is my 2 cents worth. and I will NOT superimpose my ideals upon another race. (unless of course I'm trying to wipe them out) Those that have run into my race (well, actually only one) can verify that I did not send in bigger ships.....

 

Sabeli

 

oh, and blowing up your ship IS communication.