Calling Player 3535

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Man, you need to get a grip, this is a game. Personnal attack is not warrented

 

<OOC> - Boy some of you really take a point out of context just to make a real 'personal' jibe.

 

Yes, this is a game and you can role-play it anyway you wish, because no one's going to get hurt - that's the entire purpose of a game. However, the question was deliberate and not personal. It describes a situation that I suspect many of us understand, because I know we all watch a lot of the same stuff on TV! (I suspect that I just watch less advertisements than most of you! )

 

<IC>

We also speak for ourselves, the Star League and not the GSL.

 

To travel past clear empire markers that request contact and purposefully scan systems and further WPs, is, at best, a very deliberate and unfriendly act. It could also be seen as aggressive.

 

You appear to be quite right, it is necessary to be prepared to defend oneself against a myriad of aggressive races out there. Potential friends would not carry through the scenario you outline.

 

And so, whilst it would be taking advantage of our extended hand of friendship, you would only do it for one turn.

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

[EternusIV]

This thread has become HUGE :lol:

 

Without all the official roleplaying lingo here is how I see it:

 

The Conflict (shot heard around the galaxy?)

===============================

 

1) WKE is a nice guy and I earnestly believe he wants a neighbor to trade with (who wouldnt? - the advantages are way too tremendous to overlook)

 

2) NSI is having fun. He is frustrating the hell out of WKE by not communicating and placing extra warships at the border.

 

As it stands now, I think WKE would be foolish to think he can send a pathfinder through there without some resistance. At a minimum, he was a war on his hands.

 

WKE is within his rights to try to get through and NSI is within its rights to defend its position....and the act of adding a warship to the border IS aggressive....and I have a feeling that its on its way through.

 

This whole GSL v. the Galaxy thing

======================

Its clear that the GSL is an easy target. They are the self-proclaimed white hats. If you hang yourself out there as the galactic "good guy", you are going to get flack -- and they seem to be handling it pretty well. I, for one, am not of the opinion that everyone is after the GSL. quite frankly, I would think the GSL a foolish target.

 

My only confusion is WHY the GSL is a part of this discussion beyond the fact that WKE is affiliated with them.

 

If Walter was NOT a member of the GSL, his actions would be the same and this thread would be one post long. I guess thats my main point which is why I'll bold it.

 

My writing seems random? It is. Strange, busy day

 

Carry on Its HIGHLY entertaining. Got any more of those cans of worms Azuth? :lol:

 

 

/em opens bag of popcorn

/em leans back

/em watches the show.........

[DWillard]

Boy, what a freakin thread!

 

I thought I could stay out of it but I guess I've finally been dragged in.

 

I do have a couple of new thoughts on the subject that have thus far been overlooked so I will try not to rehash all of the stuff that's previously been discussed.

 

First I want to clarify that I have no problem whatsoever with anything that WKE has done. Also, I have no vested interest in siding with MMB other than if we happen to agree then that's all there is to it, we happen to agree. My point is, I'm not posting this just to back up MMB. I've long expressed my concerns about the GSL and their stance of being the so called "Good Guys", even back when MMB was a member. My concerns are not with WKE's actions but how these actions fit in with the GSL's proclaimed philosophies.

 

Let me start by saying that I have absolutely no problem with a player guarding HIS warp point or HIS systems with "hostile" ROE's. Every turn I expect at least one of my pathfinders to get toasted when entering uncharted territory and I accept those consequences. And when it happens I'll know I've gone too far. If the other player says anything or not, I'm a fool to not think that he has laid claim to that territory; and for me to keep pushing foreward will only aggravate the situation and sends the clear message back that I am contesting that player for the territory in question. This seems to be a no brainer to me. If that's my intent, then I will surely succeed. And more power to me if that's what I want to do. However, If I'm supposed to be the White Knight In Shining Armor then I don't think I should be trying to aggravate these types of situations and certainly I shouldn't be flying around the galaxy challenging other Empires for their territory.

 

Is this the most diplomatic way to lay claim to one's territory? No. But it certainly is the easiest, most clear, and most unmistakalbe way to say "You've gone too far. Either back up or bring it on". Personally, I have no problem interpreting that message and unless I was LOOKING for a fight I would most certainly back off rather than press foreward. The potentially disturbing point to this is it looks like WKE, as a member of the GSL, chose to "bring it on". If he's worried that this NSI guy is evil and aggressive, even though he has no evidence that the NSI is doing anything but defending his home system, then why doesn't he hop back to his own area of "two systems out from his home world" and start building up defenses. I mean, that is what all of the spaceships, weapons, ground toops, mental poweres, MDDs and all are for, right?

 

Now on to some specifics.

 

I think it's absolutely ludicrous to keep claiming that the NSI shot first. The first time, yes (which as stated above should have sent a clear message). The second and third time, NO. You knew what his ROE was. Doesn't matter if you thought you were entering his system by means of another warp point or even if you entered by accident. The prudent thing to do was to assume all of his warp points in that system were guarded in like manner. After the first incident, knowing what his ROE was, it was the act of warping in that triggered the battle. Doesn't matter what your ROE is, you know a battle is going to happen. So, could you have kept warping in pathfinders and other small ships turn after turn, building up a case against the NSI, stating he keeps shooting at you first despite your repeated attempts at peaceful contact by means of "peaceful" ROE's. No, that is so bogus.

 

This brings up another point. What was the motive behind sending in the second pathfinder through what was thought to be a separate warp point? Sneek in behind his defenses? Try to find out if this is the NSI's home system? Seek out his homeworld? Scout out the rest of his defenses? To me, this is the most suspicious and questionable action that everyone seems to have overlooked.

 

Here's another point. According to WKE, one of the ways into the Diocles system is through a one way warp point. Meaning that if the NSI were to warp from his side he would not end up in the system where WKE is originating from. So it's possible that the NSI figured this out, knowing that there were no alien ships on what would be the other side of the WP for him, and brought over everything he could to defend against what might next be coming through this one way warp point. It's very possible that the intent of the NSI was not to attack out but to only increase the defenses of what could very well be his home system with everthing that he had available.

 

While we are talking about the one way warp point, how many systems does this one way wp bypass? It's possible that the one way jumped right into the NSI's core systems where he has every right to denfend against intruders. The whole of the GSL is assuming that the NSI, because of the aggressive ROE, is out on a rampage. The GSL members posting in this thread keep wanting to give WKE the benefit of the doubt, but give none to the NSI. As the "White Hats" I would expect the GSL to be a bit slower to deal out judgement and retribution.

 

And what about the Chlodmer (sp?) system. WKE states that he did not attack the NSI in this system. Meaning, I guess, that he could have if he wanted. Well the flip side to this is that the NSI did not attack him either which lends credibility to the idea that the NSI is truely in a defensive mode in Diocles. Maybe the NSI has been attcked already by another empire. Who knows. Seems to me that there are too many unknowns for the "Good Guys" to so quickly condemn the NSI. Are some ture colors starting to show? Likewise, it's too soon to tell but it wont take too many more incidents like this one to find out.

 

And what are all of these comments about "whining because you got what was coming to you"? I've heard no whining from the NSI. I thought part of the problem with this situation was that nothing was being heard from the NSI. Now you're complaining that there is whining going on?

 

Having said all of this, I have this to say about the NSI's silence. Silence is a damn good way to judge someone's true intentions. Accident or not, look how few turns it took WKE to bring over his "defensive" ship. During those turns did the NSI move out from his position? Not that we know of.

 

So when you put all of the BS aside, at least up to this point I don't see how you can argue that WKE's actions were not aggressive.

 

Now lets talk about this BS with only being able to lay claim to two systems out from your home system. If I want to spend my money and my orders and my time by expanding out and claiming as much territory as I can, then that is my business. If the GSL wants to play the good guys, then as long as I didn't wrench the territory out from some innocent players hands they should not interfere in my affairs. Some in the GSL argue that anything more than two systems out from your home system is some type of community space that we are all entiltled to. That's the biggest load of BS to date. Again, if the GSL are the quintessential good guys, then unless I'm committing some evil act they should respect my territory and mind their own business.

 

If you still see this as a neutral area of space that is community property then consider this: I'm sure Locklyn has invested a huge amount of time, money, and resources in his EXPL efforts. I'm also sure that he is exploring in systems that are more than two systems out. By your reasoning, the info and items he gains from this "neutral" area should be available to all of the players in the game. The point is, if I invest my efforts into claiming a large area of space, I have the right to defend it and restrict travel through it as I see fit. If another empire or alliance wants to come along and take it all away from me... well, if they are bigger than me they will likely succeed. But it's not a very nice guy thing to do now, is it?

 

OK, so now I'll get to my real gripe I have about the GSL. This little tiff with the NSI is only the beginning. There will be many similar situations to come. Some more clear cut, some more hazey. I know for a fact that there are some scoundrels in the GSL who will be looking to instigate fights knowing that they will have the backing of their huge alliance, no questions asked. (and I am in no way trying to imply that WKE is one of them). More and more, I fear, you will have to do things their way or else end up an enemy of the alliance as a whole. Already we are seeing that to ignore them, or to withhold information from them, or to not allow them into your territory, or to defend your territory as you see fit, or to not anounce your "claimed" systems to the galaxy can make you an instant enemy. If not an instant ememy, you are likely to be viewed as having evil intentions. I'm not saying that they will then all come after you, but they will have established their justification as to why it's now ok for them to "start" a war. This is not true for every single empire in the GSL but there are plenty of them just itching to fight and, like everyone else, are just looking for the right justification. So, the more rules they impose on the galaxy, the more potential areas for justification they will have. If this is what they want to do, then fine, but at least drop the "Good Guy" bit. If you are going to keep on with the "Good Guy" bit , then I hope as the game progesses we will see more impartiality and a more fair and clear philosophy concerning neutral empires, and more respect for the territory of neutral empires.

 

As it is now, as admitted by the GSL, each empire in the alliance is free to act as they wish but is more likely than not (as we have seen) to get the full backing of the alliance in times of conflict. Doesn't sound like a bunch of White Knights to me.

[Kurassier]

Ok, let's go back and and check the definition of a 'white knight'.

After all, the crusades were started by 'white knights' who felt that their way of life was the only way, and therefore had to impose their will on the lowly infidels.

Now of course, the Saracens, Moors, etc. believed that their way of life was the only way and therefore had to impose their will on the lowly infidels...

 

So, IMHO, it really is just a matter of perspective. Both the Christians and the Moslems believed that they were right, that their way was good, that their way was just. Yet if you look at their views closely, THEIR IS NO WAY THEY CAN BOTH BE RIGHT!

 

Now I will keep in mind that this is a game and everybody can claim that their way is the right way, that is what makes the game fun for me, especially the role playing. Awesome! (of course we all truly know that the way of the Sabeli is the only true path! )

So, now, let's all just sit by the campfire (you plant types might not want to get toooo close) toast some marshmellows, sing Kumbayah and get slockered!!

 

FYI, I believe the HBOB are willing to stand up and be labeled as such.

 

Alcorn the Honored One

Prognosticator of Prognosticators

Seer of Seers

and a dang right jolly old fellow!

[MadMartinB]

I would agree with Dwillard (well I have to :-) The clear evidence of his comments of the weight of the alliance is evident by the number of GSL (not counting WKE) who have jumped in to justify the position.

 

They all say: well WKE can act alone but hey he was right for these reasons..

 

Funny...

[T'Aleen Empire]

Hmmm DWillard,

 

Although you write a nice posting above, where is your "Proof" that any GSL member is a Cbt Junkie? Name a single active member that has told you that they want Cbt and to fight? Show some proof, any proof of this here and now. If you have proof, step forward and present it here and now!

 

Remember it is always easier to bash someone and say this or that, but when someone calls for proof...then that is when folks go running to hide. The GSL was started by like minded players that had a idea to create a alliance that would make a difference and have a long and lasting game existance. The GSL was formed from a ever growing body of players that have like minds and feeling of working together and in peace to make a better game world and playing environment for all.

 

I should know because I was one of the Co Founders, although back then I wanted to name the alliance the "System's Commonwealth", and Mark G. wanted it to be named something else, and as a group we came up with some choices and the GSL name was born/created.

 

Another issue I have, is how can you judge something when you know nothing of it's inner workings or all of whom is actually within the alliance itself. You seem to be listening to all the taunts and jabs that some folks have made and think of that as being the real issue. You have never been a member, and if you had you would know that all have a equal voice and to be heard.

 

Now as to this phrase "White Hats" that was coined by Martin in a attempt to poke fun at or belittle the GSL. We perfer to call ourselves ..."Good-Guys". I for one have always said..."Good guys wear Black myself". Stop with trying to define a alliance that you really know nothing about, try instead to worry about real issues or game matters and not the fantasies of others just trying to poke fun at something for the purpose of just being nasty and etc...!

 

Respectfully a GSL Judge and Co Founder...

 

Penn

 

Kumbayah

[The Boo Consulate]

OOC:

 

Propaganda should not be confused with fact. The "white hat" thing was a way for adversaries to taunt the GSL and accuse the organization of basically being a bunch of idealistic panzies. This is much like the Democratic Party was once characterized by a jackass. Now the Democrats proudly use the icon as the symble of their party. The same is true with the "white hat" thing. The GSL is not evil, is not militaristic, is not bent on subjugating the Galaxy, nor is it about crushing all those that have different view points. We generally have a 'live and let live" approach. If that means we are good guys in a civilization building/war game, then so be it. We intend to win the game, but this is an openended game and we generally view winning in terms of creating a thriving and robust galactic civilization where our races might live in relative peace and prosperity. We simply favor a win-win team approach to our little simulation.

 

The Charter of the Galactic Star League is a treaty between sovereign races creating an intergalactic body to which we have ceded certain functions of government that are of common concern. It is much like the European Union or, more precisely, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. One of the provisions of our Charter is the mutual recognition by our sovereign members to the exclusive territorial sovereignty of one another to those systems within two warp jumps from the home System. This provision is not a limit, but a minimum guarantee of mutually recognized de jure sovereignty. In this regard the two-warp point clause in our organizing treaty is like the Exclusive Economic Zone in the real life Law of the Sea Convention. It was very tediously and meticulously debated--probably why Martin left--but eventually decided that two jumps out was a reasonable minimal guarentee both for economic and security reasons. This clause in no way limits our members in their colonization efforts for there is an internal mechanism for registering and seeking official GSL recognition of claims beyond that Two Jump Minimum. If one is not a party to the Charter of the GSL it seems obvious that one would not be legally bound by it. No one in the GSL has ever made a claim that the rest of the player base will not be allowed to expanded beyond two jumps from their home system. That is a completely inaccurate understanding of the Two Jump clause in the GSL Charter, as well as the legal effects of that provision.

 

My game positions will respect the territory of non-member races to a de facto sovereignty of all systems extending two jumps from their home system (as long as you'll let me know where the boundries are). Other GSL members may or may not do the same. My guess is that most will also recognize other people's territorial sovereignty in the same manner as the GSL does. That is a minimum guarentee--i.e. a good thing--so I am beside myself in disbelieve that this would even be an issue. It is only an issue because negative propaganda has obscured the truth and misinformed the general game public.

 

It is my personal hope that the GSL Charter will help inform the evolving ius commune of our game galaxy, but no one in the GSL believes our internal treaty law applies to anybody but us.

 

Just so I do not have to suffer more sophistry, a recognition of de minimus territorial sovereignty is NOT the same thing as saying you can not colonize further than two jumps out! It is merely what my position will assume you own (again provide it is promulgated).

 

IC:

 

So there is no ambiguity about the Consultatum's position regarding the territorial sovereignty of non-GSL members, our government commits itself to recognizing the territorial sovereignty of all races according to the same rules employed vis-a-vie our GSL allies. This means, generally, that if another race demonstrates that a system is within two jumps of its home system, we will recognize said star systems as the exclusive territory of that race.

 

Boo Consulate

[MadMartinB]

The GSL is not evil, is not militaristic, is not bent on subjugating the Galaxy, nor is it about crushing all those that have different view points. 

 

Now can we return to the thread of why the GSL (or one of its members) is jumping cruisers through into another persons system. This seems militaristic and potentially intent on crushing...

 

[The Boo Consulate]

The Concordium informs our government that the incident was accidental. We accept that unless and until evidence to the contrary is presented.

 

In any event, the Boo regard those that shot first as aggressors and therefore, as has been sung ad infinitum thus far, the Concordium has a just cause for war. If the Concordium chooses to prosecute a war against the NSI that is the Concordium's right. Such is not militarism, it is justice. All evidence points toward a continued desire to negotiate on the part of the Concordium.

 

This shall be the final statement of the Boo regarding the recent unfortunate events in the Diocles System.

 

Boo Consulate

[DWillard]

In any event, the Boo regard those that shot first as aggressors and therefore, as has been sung ad infinitum thus far, the Concordium has a just cause for war.

And this is exactly what I'm trying to get at. You guys will keep coming up with arbitrary BS to justify anything you want to do. Maybe not the Boo, or T'Aleen, or some of the others, but anyone in the GSL can now use this as a justification for war.

 

Yeah, the NSI fired first. But you keep forgetting HE WAS IN HIS OWN SYSTEM !

 

WKE, whether intentional or not, was tresspassing. He got his warning shot and despite that he opted to send in another fleet scout.

 

I am absolutely flabbergasted that the GSL, as the "Good Guys" , have such a hard time recognizing this basic territorial right. How do I know WKE was in NSI territory? The NSI ship was sitting there, DUH! He got there first, he had a ship there, it's his territory. Plain and simple.

 

Insisting that the only way to lay claim to a system is to post it on this board is just another one of these arbitrary requirements the GSL is trying to get everyone to adhere to. And because they know that not everone will do it, it's another easy justification for war, just as you have stated.

 

I can see Cao Cao or some other warmonger using the "he shot at me first even though I was in his home system" as justification for war but I was hoping the GSL would be bigger than this. WKE may be bigger than this, that's yet to be seen, but the rest of you posting in this thread sure aren't and really need to get a clue as to what being a "Good Guy" is. If you can't do any better than this then once again, drop the "Good Guy" bit and leave it to others who can do a better job of it.

[DWillard]

The Concordium informs our government that the incident was accidental. We accept that unless and until evidence to the contrary is presented.

How the Heck is trying to sneek a scout in around the defended point accidental? How many accidental warps did WKE do? One, two, or three???

 

If it's more than one I would seriously doubt it was accidental.

[DWillard]

This shall be the final statement of the Boo regarding the recent unfortunate events in the Diocles System.

 

Boo Consulate

I sincerely hope so because if this is the best role playing and the best justifications you can come up with, well......it's just pathetic.

[Azuth]

<OOC> Before anything, I just want to say, this is just for fun and roleplaying purposes, and I have no personal grudges against anyone...especially since I don't know anyone here :lol:

 

<IC>

After much reading of page after page on this issue, there are several points I'd like to make here, if I may:

 

1 - If you move your fleet thru a WP and get blown by a fleet at the other end, was that communication or not? Yes it was. You many not like they way they communicated it, but they have communicated to you. And clearly they do not want you there. Therefore, no further need of communication is needed. Just stay out.

 

2 - Does it matter if the system their "defending" is within the so called "two systems from HW" rule. No. They may have a colony there or just want no one in that system for some reason.

 

3 - GSL problem #1 : A quote from the Boo Consulate "all GSL members are sovereign and free to make their own foreign policy. At this time there is no

common GSL policy for first contact protocols. Until such time as the political leadership of the GSL institutes such a policy the Boo speak only for themselves on this issue"

 

To me that means all you GSL folks can do whatever you want, whichever way you want, and dictate policy later on AFTER an incident has occurred. Then you come to each others side and help validate the incident. How comforting.

 

4 - GSL problem #2: A quote from Ur Lord Tedric "Any xenophobic race can easily prevent a GSL member from entering it's systems by sending those system names to any member of the GSL. These will be entered into the Star Master's tables and, on discovery by a GSL member, will be marked as claimed by a xenophobic race"

 

Hello!!!! Its a xenophobic race. It doesn't want the GSL and ALL its member to know where they are at all. Not to mention all the other alliance group either. Or should it go ahead and give all its system names out to the GSL, and while its at it, to the Phoenix Arisen, the Ming and everyone else. No, I don't think so.

 

5 - A quote from WKE235: "My own thought is it is not polite or not honorable to hide your contact information and fail to respond to contact messages (even to a minimal degree). I mean, when a player who hides their contact info is forwarded a message from RTG and they fail to respond to the message, just how should a player react?"

 

If someone knocks on your door or call you on the phone and you simply DO NOT want to be bother with, you ignore it until they leave/stops ringing. So if you've tried to communicate with this empire and they don't answer, why force yourself in? Even after you did go in, and got blown up, that should have been your answer there..."We don't want anything...please go away"

 

6 - A quote from The Boo Consulate "It is naked barbarism, regardless of how one spins it, to shot first and negotiate later"

 

Actually, its a style of protocol, not barbarism. Not everyone may agree to the final end result but if anything, it has established itself as a race that can and will fight, has indicated it is defending said system, and that no one is welcomed there. Now whether we like their protocol or not, is up to each empires personal taste and interpretation.

 

7 - A quote from Eternus IV "Brought to you by Hallmark Greeting Cards" :lol:

 

Btw, I know "The Star League" are not the GSL but you are a member of the GSL and therefore I consider you GSL. Or maybe you do not stand together with all your other GSL partners as one....hmmm...interesting.

[EternusIV]

"If someone knocks on your door or call you on the phone and you simply DO NOT want to be bother with, you ignore it until they leave/stops ringing. So if you've tried to communicate with this empire and they don't answer, why force yourself in? Even after you did go in, and got blown up, that should have been your answer there..."We don't want anything...please go away"

 

That was a great point, actually.

 

7 - A quote from Eternus IV "Brought to you by Hallmark Greeting Cards" 

 

Btw, I know "The Star League" are not the GSL but you are a member of the GSL and therefore I consider you GSL. Or maybe you do not stand together with all your other GSL partners as one....hmmm...interesting. 

 

I'm confused

 

Are you referring to me somehow? I am not affiliated with The Star League or GSL. Or were you using my line as a closing point?

 

Anyway, good post, Azuth. You had me reconsider some things. Perhaps the Spawn should recognize NSI's right of sovereign defence.

 

"First in time, first in right" as the old saying goes.

[DWillard]

It is the policy of the Boo Consulatum to respect the right to free passage in neutral space.  Freedom of the Spaceways is absolutely necessary for Galactic Civilization to free itself from the present Dark Age.  We do not impede the free movement of others and we regard any attempt to impede our movement as hostile.  All space is regarded by the Boo as free and neutral territory unless and until such time as a race claimant makes an overt, verifiable, and justifiable claim to sovereign exclusivity.  There are many ways to do this. 

 

Boo Consulate

GSL Member

And what are some of these "many" ways? All of the independant Empires and other alliances out here need to know so as not to impede the Boo from spreading across the galaxy and thereby be labled as hostile and legitimate targets for any GSL member.

 

So far the only one acceptalbe to the Boo or the GSL is to publicly post, or better yet, give a list of your systems directly to the GSL. Have you no respect for the privacy and security of non GSL empires?

 

I would certainly think that the NSI made an "overt, verifiable, and justifiable claim to sovereign exclusivity".

 

It would certainly be a clear message to me that the territory in question has already been claimed.