EternusIV Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 EVERLASTING SPAWN Political Position Statement: Number One ========================================== Being more fully advised of the premises and surrounding facts between Napatha Solarum Imperium and the Exelon Concordium, we hereby give the following position statement to the Universe (ahem): We find that the actions of the Exelon Concordium were perfectly legitimate in entering through a warp point into known NSI space with a docile pathfinder. We find that the Napatha Solarum Imperium has failed to communicate its right of control over said warp point and establish communications with the Exelon Concordium. We find that the Napatha Solarum Imperium has instead, exercised its free right of aggression against the Exelon Concordium in attempts to demarcate their imperial boundaries. We find that the Napatha Solarum Imperium has clearly engaged in aggressive defense of its borders by bringing a warship to the warp point - despite the warp point existing within NSI occupied space. We find that the the Exelon Concordium has gone out of its way to establish peaceful relations with the Napatha Solarum Imperium to date. We find that the destruction of the Exelon Concordium pathfinder was an act of war and aggression on behalf of the Napatha Solarum Imperium against the Exelon Concordium THEREFORE We hereby CONDEMN the Napatha Solarum Imperium for its acts of aggression and recognize the Exelon Concordium's natural right to defend itself against any such future hostilities. FURTHERMORE Any ships bearing the emblem of the Napatha Solarum Imperium will be treated as hostile as a precautionary measure against similar anticipated acts of their aggression unless earnest diplomatic efforts are made by Napatha Solarum Imperium. Declared this 20301 Cycle, The Admiral Helianthos Eternus IV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 (Yeah, I'm bored too - but also genuine and sincere ) 'harbinger', noun - forerunner, herald..... Just checking, that is what I meant...... This is a very important point and we wish to pursue it to it's unequivocal solution. Let us take the Sabelli situation as we understand it, please correct us if we are wrong. The systems "exclusively Sabelli" are those inside your borders. These borders are established by 'explorers' that will only fire if fired upon. If empires ignore these sentinels, and any attempts to communicate, then carry on into your systems then you will attack them. Not only personally, but we also know the GSL are more than happy with the peaceful attitude thus displayed, many of us and indeed the Star League themselves have exactly this policy. Deliberate encroachment into your systems is an overtly hostile act. The Concordium did not face this issue. They were attacked without warning, or, in our book, provocation. Thus the war, limited hopefully, was already initiated. The Concordium ship took up a defensive position in case the aggressors then came through. Unfortunately they jumped through in error, but still only defended themselves; meanwhile they were making every attempt to communicate. Either way, they did not enter the system after being told not to, which the Sabelli would have done. Indeed they would have been justified by responding in force anyway. They had been attacked and it was only reasonable that they respond - quid pro quo. In fact the only concern we have over the, 'please don't come into our systems now we've met you' stance, is the issue of one-way WPs. Unless you have sentinels at every WP you claim, everywhere, you can never be sure someone can't jump in unannounced.........and even then they might still innocently arrive. Finally, even if I accept the definition that the Concordium did 'force' themselves on the NSI, it was only to 'force' contact after everything else has failed. I don't believe the intention was to jump through, but with no contact at all perhaps the Concordium has to consider the liklihood of an empire with no remaining government and colonies to be helped......! So, would meeting the Star League, or any member of the GSL, be a harbinger of peace and good relations - damn skippy!! Lord High Seneschal to Ur-Lord Tedric in a sprightly and happy mood! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boo Consulate Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 This is a topic the Boo Consulate has addressed before. Firstly, however, for those not familiar with the way the GSL works; all GSL members are sovereign and free to make their own foreign policy. At this time there is no common GSL policy for first contact protocals. Until such time as the political leadership of the GSL institutes such a policy the Boo speak only for themselves on this issue. It is the policy of the Boo Consulatum to respect the right to free passage in neutral space. Freedom of the Spaceways is absolutely necessary for Galactic Civilization to free itself from the present Dark Age. We do not impede the free movement of others and we regard any attempt to impede our movement as hostile. All space is regarded by the Boo as free and neutral territory unless and until such time as a race claimant makes an overt, verifiable, and justifiable claim to sovereign exclusivity. There are many ways to do this. The Boo publicize our sovereign systems. We have adopted the admittedly cumbersome policy of providing notice and seeking comment before we enter new systems outside of our sovereign territory. We do not shot on sight and our legal and ethical traditions leave us no choice but to view those that do so as morally depraved and warlike. For our government the aggressor is clear. The NSI fired first, and then again on the second encounter. It is the NSI that is the aggressor and as for as we are concerned the Government of the Concordium has legitimate causus belli against the NSI. It is highly admirable of the Concordium to continue its quest for a diplomatic solution. We are honored to count the Concordium as friends. Boo Consulate GSL Member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 ah a whimper comment. It took about 45 minutes for the GSL to take it to a personal level. Being more mature than many in the GSL (notice both posts above) and also being in agreement with most of the posters who are not GSL (amazing how you can justify anything) the following is my take on it. Player A jumps through system X and loses a Pathfinder. Player A has a self stated policy of being a nice guy, believing in the integrity of Player Bs space, wants to be known as the good guys of the universe etc... Player A then tries to communicate with Player B who does not respond. Player A then jumps a cruiser into the system where Player B is. A couple of items come to mind: 1) Player A made a mistake. Well some war's have started that way so it could be an honest mistake. 2) Player A thought that there since there was no communication from Player B he was a dropped empire and was interested in conquest. This leads to 2 possibilities: a) The GSL does not care about dropped empires or the player does not care about what the GSLs possibility is 3) Player A wants a fight. Now the claim is that the reason was 1. It could be. It could also be Reason 2 and now that the empire is not a dropped one Reason 1 is being claimed. Part II - The comedic (or comical) commentary that one needs to provide ones star systems to the GSL to be left alone is almost too funny to be true. Here is the logic: Poland...we are Germany and we have taken over Austria and are allied with Russia. If you want to be left alone provide us with a list of all your critical rail nexus points, strategic cities etc... so we can just leave you alone. Right! I believe that. Then woooooopppppsss I just typed in WARP 101 by mistake. Ooooopppsss.... ---------- Now that is how you address it in a non personal level. of course one should also note that it is not the player who did the action who is addressing me but rather several other GSL players who are rallying to the cause... Signed: terrified in space... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 The Concordium have made every effort to communicate with the NSI (#3535). They have done so even after being the victims of unwarranted aggression. We accept completely the Concordium's rendition of the incident and know that they were merely placing their own defences. The fact of a mis-given WARP order is quite acceptable and who here can honestly say that they have never mis-typed an order (I wish! ) They would have had every right to enter the WP anyway. Who is to deny them that right? If the NSI had asked them not to, we know that the Concordium would not have done so. But complete silence by the NSI, especially after firing on Concordium ships, is itself a deliberate act. The view from here is quite simple and, I am sure, applies equally to my GSL brothers: We seek peace and trade - we welcome empires in hope of good relations - we are potential friends and allies - deal with us in good faith and you will find honour returned - we respect the rights of all empires to HW+2 systems out - speak to us when we meet and tell us your claims - but attack us and we must defend ourselves. We accept that there are those who will attempt to tarnish us, but it will not work. We know there are those who are jealous and even afraid, because they know we will stand against them. But to those who come in peace, either to trade, to ensure their security, to establish borders, to be left alone, or even to join, we will act with honour and steadfastness." QUOTE] I've stayed out of most of these war of words, but frankly, I'm bored at the moment and thought I'd comment. In reviewing your words on the boards, you are the "harbinger" of peace, AS YOU SEE IT. You talk of peace, (and probably are sincere) yet believe that every country must play by your rules. To say "they have every right to enter the WP", is quite arrogant. Yes, I would agree that I believe that I can go through an WP I find. There are however consequences for all actions, including moving through WP's. If I understand this thread, (and please feel free to let me know if I am wrong) WKE moved a pathfinder through a WP and got blown up. Since he had no contact, he moved a bigger ship through the WP (accident or not is irrelevant), obviously to blow up anybody that fired on him. (which he knew was very likely, because of a prior encounter) Sounds to me like WKE is FORCING HIS WAY upon the NSI. I personally will attempt to contact anybody I find. ( in fact have done so and set up a 'border' with that empire) However, I have many systems I consider EXCLUSIVLEY SABELI, and anybody that enters them will be attacked. (and I see no need to post the names, because if you find them, you will be attacked, and you can't avoid them until you go through the WP. Therefore I will naturally take it that if my explorer vessels (which are all set to fire ONLY if fired upon) are attacked, that the alien doesn't want me there. Logic dictates to me then, that if I send a bigger and better armed ship to that same location, that war will commence. Therefore my logic tells me that WKE, in fact, caused war with the NSI, by moving a bigger ship through the WP. (many wars have been started by accident) That is not an act of someone who is a harbinger of peace. Now, that is my 2 cents worth. and I will NOT superimpose my ideals upon another race. (unless of course I'm trying to wipe them out) Those that have run into my race (well, actually only one) can verify that I did not send in bigger ships..... Sabeli oh, and blowing up your ship IS communication. Your analysis of the chain of events would be correct, if in fact his act of moving the warships through the warp point was purposeful. Since he said it was accidental, it's difficult to interpret the act as belligerant. OTOH, you can always choose not to believe him. You can assume he purposefully incited war then came to the boards to initiate a pointless diplomatic process for show. Issues of credibility are, for the most part, beyond rational debate. As for giving out system information, I don't recall Mark suggesting that anyone post their systems to the boards. I know I wouldn't do it. It's a matter of security. However, in the situation where you encounter a specific empire in space and you do not want that empire to enter specific systems, you could inform the empire of which systems you do not want entered. Or you could, as you suggest, set up ships to blast anything that comes through in order to send a message to not try it again. Either system could work. Under the first system, you are less likely to have your actions interpreted as inciting warfare. OTOH, under the second system, you in theory have improved security because you haven't told your neighbor anything about your systems. It's a personal choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 ah a whimper comment. It took about 45 minutes for the GSL to take it to a personal level. Being more mature than many in the GSL (notice both posts above) and also being in agreement with most of the posters who are not GSL (amazing how you can justify anything) the following is my take on it. Oh this is more and more of a hoot all the time. I think you've got it backwards. These days, every time I see a "Mad Martin" post I know there's a 50/50 chance it will contain "GSL" and "white hats" somewhere in it, and some kind of generally non-flattering take on GSL policy or actions. The fact that you take issue with WKE's conduct is hardly a surprise. It would have been a shock if it had been otherwise. Certain GSL members might have been perturbed at you for a short time over the issue of disclosing (or intending to disclosure) information that, at the time, was considered confidential. However, there is little to no discussion of you right now, and there hasn't been for several weeks. We've gotten over it. Clearly, you haven't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Despite our previously stated position, we find the following a VERY suspicious cause for the breach into neighobring systems: I don't believe the intention was to jump through, but with no contact at all perhaps the Concordium has to consider the liklihood of an empire with no remaining government and colonies to be helped......! Even our most analytical and stick-in-the-mud security advisers had to laugh at that one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boo Consulate Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 We beg MM to place his "white hat" comments into a "locked Box." :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan Elder 'Keen Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Your analysis of the chain of events would be correct, if in fact his act of moving the warships through the warp point was purposeful. Since he said it was accidental, it's difficult to interpret the act as belligerant. OTOH, you can always choose not to believe him. You can assume he purposefully incited war then came to the boards to initiate a pointless diplomatic process for show. Issues of credibility are, for the most part, beyond rational debate. Beyond the political rhetoric, this situation is a very simple litmus test for the Exelon Concordium's (and by extension the GSL's) intentions. If indeed the warp into a system known to be held by another empire (despite the status of verbal or written communication) was accidental, then immediate withdrawl from said system lends credibility to that explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 <OOC> Just to let every one in on the joke, you really should be aware that as far as MMB's concerned I am Public Enemy Number One. I was named as his Nemesis and a significant mover behind his decision to quit the GSL. What did I do? Perhaps I called him on a few of his views - well there's a surprise...... :lol: 'Bad Mark, bad bad Mark......! Take it personally, not a chance. Gnats really don't cause anything more than a minor irritation and the occasional reaching for bug spray. <IC> Come one, come all. There is nothing to fear from the GSL unless you intend to attack and spread fear. We will defend ourselves and those who seek peace. The Star League stand as true peacemakers and defenders of the weak. We support the GSL's aims of purveying peace and good relations. We know we'll take flak, we know there will be derision amongst the admitted aggressors, but it will all be just waffle. We will stand firm and enjoy every moment. Particularly when empires meet us and find it's all true........ Ur-Lord Tedric, up close and personal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 You forgot the voice-over: "Brought to you by Hallmark Greeting Cards" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Despite our previously stated position, we find the following a VERY suspicious cause for the breach into neighobring systems: QUOTE I don't believe the intention was to jump through, but with no contact at all perhaps the Concordium has to consider the liklihood of an empire with no remaining government and colonies to be helped......! Even our most analytical and stick-in-the-mud security advisers had to laugh at that one Oh yes, Eternus And you should have seen the grin on my face when I wrote it! :lol: Mx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 "Brought to you by Hallmark Greeting Cards" Sorry, I don't know that one.... TV's a bit different over here in the old country.... I'm sure it was funny though Mx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 LOL at the hallmark quote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boo Consulate Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 The United Republic of Scanners has raised an interesting series of questions. The Boo, of course sing only for themselves, but as it regards our government's policies, the Consulatum has authorized the following answers: Is xenophobia a bad thing or considered prudent? VIOLENT, AGGRESSIVE, AND MINDLESS XENOPHOBIA AS EXEMPLIFIED BY A PERSISTENT REFUSIAL TO ACKNOWLEGE DIPLOMATIC COMMUNICATIONS IS BAD. MERELY DEFENDING ONE'S TERRITORY IS REASONABLE AND PRUDENT. THIS PRESUPPOSES THAT ONE HAS LEGITIMATED ONE'S SOVEREIGN CLAIM BY PROMULGATING IT. Is building up forces when you haven't met any other empire yet and defending warp points with naval forces xenophobic by defition? WE KNOW HISTORICALLY THAT INTERSTELLAR WARS HAVE BEEN FAUGHT. BUILDING WAR FLOCKS IS PRUDENT. GARRISONING ONE'S TERRITORY IS ALSO PRUDENT PROVIDED ONE EITHER DOES SO TO WARN OFF INTRUDERS OR HAS PROPERLY PROMULGATED ONE'S CLAIMS WITH PUBLIC RESERVATION OF THE RIGHT TO PUNITIVE EVICTION. Should remaining silent be considered as hostile or as neutral? (I do not regard it as friendly) SILENCE IS ONE'S RIGHT. THE BOO VIEW SILENCE AS A NEUTRAL POSITION. ONE WHO IS SILENT, HOWEVER, HAS NO RIGHT TO POST FACTO SONGS OF VICTIMIZATION. IF ONE WISHES ITS RIGHTS TO BE RESPECTED IT IS NECESSARY THAT ONE ALLOWS OTHERS THE OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW WHAT THOSES RIGHTS ARE. Is it acceptable to move further into a silent empires space once a silent empires defensive forces at a certain warp point have been destroyed? IF ONE IS SILENT HOW CAN ANOTHER REASONBLY KNOW WHERE THE AGGRESSOR'S SPACE ENDS AND/OR BEGINS? THERE ARE MANY FORMS OF LIFE AND INTELLIGENCE IN THE UNIVERSE. A SILENT AGGRESSOR IS, FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES, NO DIFFERENT THAN AN AGGRESSIVE, ALBEIT CLEVER, FOOD ANIMAL. FURTHERMORE, MERELY BEING ATTACKED AT A WARP POINT IMPLIES NOTHING, IN AND OF ITSELF, ABOUT TERRITORY. IT MERELY DENOTES AN UNFORTUNATE ENCOUNTER. THE BOO CONSULATE REGARDS ALL SPACE AS NEUTRAL UNTIL IT IS SOMEHOW PUBLICALLY CLAIMED IN A VERIFIABLE AND JUSTIFIABLE FASHION. Is it acceptable for a white hat to take a neutral planet or empire by force? NON-SPACEFARING PRIMATIVES LACK INTERSTELLAR LEGAL PERSONALITY AND ARE NOT PROPER SUBJECTS OF INTERSTELLAR LAW. THIS DOES NOT MEAN MORALITY AND REASON SHOULD NOT GOVERN RELATIONS BETWEEN PRIMATIVES AND MORE ADVANCED RACES. THE BOO POLICY IS TO TREAT ALL SENTIENT GOVERNMENTS, REGARDLESS OF TECHNOLOGY, AS EQUALS. Boo Consulate GSL Member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.