ShadowKitsune Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 It seems to me that whomever is playing the NSI has decided to let his/her guns do the talking. If that's the way the NSI is going to be, s'okay by me. It isn't my empire, so who am I to judge? (I'm just glad I found out via the BBS instead of a Death Ray. :lol: ) If WKE wants to take the stance that any destruction of his property is cassus belli, that's his right, too. Same rules apply - his empire, his style of play. So what's all the furor about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Whether or not there is a "justification for war" is an abstraction to this discussion. The fact is, WKE was not seeking war, and more importantly, *still* isn't seeking war. AFAIK, he just wants to get his ships out of that system and not have another encounter with NSI, unless it's a friendly one. If WKE moves out and does not seek hostile action against NSI in the future, you guys can only assume it was an accident. If he continues through that system, moves to other systems, and starts attacking NSI, then you can conclude otherwise. Or you can declare the GSL a warlike and territorial alliance forever because of this incident, regardless of what he does or doesn't do in the future. To be blunt, at this point, I personally don't give a crap. - Woolfe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanislaw Mikolajczyk Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 To be blunt, at this point, I personally don't give a crap. :lol: I agree - this thread is slowly devolving from rhetorical humor to the over-analyzed sublime. It was a nice time filler while it lasted though and the thread invited some interesting analysis on how to handle silent but defending neighbors. EDIT: Crap this is Eternus IV. I was logged on as my Poland moniker for victory 71.Sorry about all the confusion! LOL I assure you, The Everlasting Spawn have NOT relocated transdimensionally to pre-WWII Poland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 I would love to take the ship home. But, the ship that jumped in was a Drone and Fighter support vessel. It was never intended to scan warp points. Hence I have a ship sitting in a star system where I can do a system survey. But can I scan the warp point I'm sitting at so I can go home? No. Given that NSI had brought up a fleet scout with a Pioneer on board, and was at the WP with a cruiser for awhile, I think I can assume the WP is likely at least a D, perhaps an E even. Until I can get a WarpRider ship to the area to jump in and scan the warp point, I am likely stuck. I guess I could warp in the remaining ships from the other star system to protect the damaged ship. But I can just see the comments on to board about that (one cruiser is an accident, three is someone looking for a fight). If NSI would just contact me, I'm sure something could be worked out. I'm even willing to compensate him to make up for some of the loss, even give him some NTWD's. I am open to discussions here. My only other choice is to become aggressive and start hunting down his ships (like his fleet scouts exploring planets I encountered in a second star system that I never fired on a left alone, moving on....). And that's not my style of play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Carpenter Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 DWillard, Great post I agree, you expressed my ideas better than i have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Carpenter Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Again, the Boo sing only for themselves. To avoid the senario you have just put forward the Boo publish their sovereign systems. Those that frequent the forum know where we are already. If a ship shows up in our space without permission we will deal with them on a case by case basis, but we reserve the right to forcably evict said ship. We will not look fondly upon a ship from one of the "board troll" races showing up in our systems; that we can chant with certainty. The Boo live in a free society and free societies often pay a price for their openess. We also hope to gain much in the way of good will and commerce because of this same openess. We may run the risk of a scan, but a scan is passive intelligence and in all likihood dated by the time one could reasonably act on it. Geography, while a factor in war, is but one factor among many. The fact is we do not care if others know where our homeworld is located. We do not care if others know what mineral wealth we have. We have carved out a small piece of the Galaxy for ourselves and our hatchlings. We neither seek, nor require more at this time. It is doubtful that we will ever need anymore than what we have. Vistors are welcomed, provided they seek negotiated permision first. Unwanted visitors will be asked to leave, those that do not will perish. We must say in closing that an analysis of Macro Hard's policy reveals a generally reasonable approach, one that is shared by many, we are sure. As for our GSL compatriots, they each have their own policies and the Alliance itself has none that we am aware of. We represent only the Boo. Boo Consulate GSL Member Well then, the BOO, and Marcohard agree neither policy is unreasonable. I hope I that you were talking about the fleets behind my scouts, and to clarify, i am talking about your declaration of system names. OOOpppps, BOO, i am going to have to take you to task. You said my plan, ie scouts ahead with non attack orders, and behind them the hot picket ships, was reasonable. Now i find out that in one system the NS guy has a fleet that did not attack, but in the next System he has a Hot fleet guarding. We have both agreed this is reasonable, and the GLS guy is now the agressor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserwolf Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 If anyone comes into a system I am at, I'll shoot yer ass. You keep sending ships, I keep building up forces to keep shootin yer ass. We Hatfields have been doin' this fer generations. It's real simple folks, it's about bein' polite. You want in, ya knock and ask. If I say ok, you can come on is, if not, well, I shoot yer ass. If ya don't want yer ass shot a second time, don't come back. We ain't aggressive, we're possessive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 What really is amazing is that all the pro WKE activity are from GSL players. Amazing how the alliance rallies... 3 Cruisers or other ships might be more than an OOOPPPSSS... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octagon999 Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Again, the Boo sing only for themselves. To avoid the senario you have just put forward the Boo publish their sovereign systems. Those that frequent the forum know where we are already. If a ship shows up in our space without permission we will deal with them on a case by case basis, but we reserve the right to forcably evict said ship. We will not look fondly upon a ship from one of the "board troll" races showing up in our systems; that we can chant with certainty. The Boo live in a free society and free societies often pay a price for their openess. We also hope to gain much in the way of good will and commerce because of this same openess. We may run the risk of a scan, but a scan is passive intelligence and in all likihood dated by the time one could reasonably act on it. Geography, while a factor in war, is but one factor among many. The fact is we do not care if others know where our homeworld is located. We do not care if others know what mineral wealth we have. We have carved out a small piece of the Galaxy for ourselves and our hatchlings. We neither seek, nor require more at this time. It is doubtful that we will ever need anymore than what we have. Vistors are welcomed, provided they seek negotiated permision first. Unwanted visitors will be asked to leave, those that do not will perish. We must say in closing that an analysis of Macro Hard's policy reveals a generally reasonable approach, one that is shared by many, we are sure. As for our GSL compatriots, they each have their own policies and the Alliance itself has none that we am aware of. We represent only the Boo. Boo Consulate GSL Member Well then, the BOO, and Marcohard agree neither policy is unreasonable. I hope I that you were talking about the fleets behind my scouts, and to clarify, i am talking about your declaration of system names. OOOpppps, BOO, i am going to have to take you to task. You said my plan, ie scouts ahead with non attack orders, and behind them the hot picket ships, was reasonable. Now i find out that in one system the NS guy has a fleet that did not attack, but in the next System he has a Hot fleet guarding. We have both agreed this is reasonable, and the GLS guy is now the agressor BUT!!! The key here is that the empire never said jack. The ships being there wasnt the problem. Not saying anything and opening fire is the problem. Now, you arent stupid and bringing up a JSS ship with a high level explorer, plus more warships would mean what to you exactly? It doesnt quite take a mindreader does it Gary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Some statistics brought to you by the people of sunflowers ====================================== This thread is quickly surpassing the Naval Combat Primer thread in the Game Mechanics section which currently has the highest number of posts on the entire RTG board (9 pages long) This thread currently dwarfs all other Galactic Forum threads at 8 pages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 <OOC> - Oh, should I , shall I - yes, it's worth it and I was malinged again - along with the alliance I am part of...... <IC> Firstly we would confirm our view that the Star League is a sovereign empire and responsible only for it's own actions and, indeed, philosophy. But the GSL is our choice because of what they stand for and, which meets our own aims, the policies of searching for peace and trade and stability. So: 1) That means we, and they, want to try and 'play' the good guys - what colour we wear is entirely a matter of personal choice. 2) We plan to explore the galaxy with the hand of friendship open. If you shoot up our explorers then we have to assume you're not interested in that friendship, or indeed trade, and indeed, once we are identified as belonging to that esteemed alliance, the GSL, and you know you have nothing to fear, if the aggression continues then your hand is revealed. 3) We are sure we are not the only member in the GSL who believes this, but, for our part, we hold ourselves accountable as part of that alliance. If a GSL member acts in the way some have outlined, believing that they have a 'big bad alliance' behind them - then they may well find themselves sadly mistaken. Members of the GSL are accountable to the other members. If they act against the tenets of the GSL they will find themselves outside their protection. In extreme cases they may be ejected from the GSL and have punitive measures taken against them. If that doesn't happen and the GSL condones actions that are unequivocally against the 'good guy' beliefs, then the Star League for one will publically leave in a blaze of bad publicity and let you all know! 4) {and a new one for the thread to discuss}... Systems are not "territory". Systems are merely waypoints on the journey from here to there. We wish to explore and we come in peace, therefore there is no reason to prevent us going from here to there. The HW+2 is merely a generally accepted sphere of influence that we all recognise as a normal economic resource area. It can be bigger, we make no claims. If you have colonised planets for mining, then they are yours alone - unless you wish to share. 5) If, for whatever reason, you wish to not allow us to enter some systems at all, then you have to tell us. We do not accept that destroying our ships is telling us - it is naked aggression and xenophobia. No Star League ship will carry on past marked border posts without permission, nor I believe will any other GSL members. However, if communication fails after several attempts, it is reasonable to assume that such quiet ships are possibly derelict and the empire is as dead as the rest of the T'ckon. How you tell us, is entirely up to you. Yes, the easy way is to find a GSL member and give them a list. Then other GSL members will be told before they warp in. If not, then just put border fleets in place and say so each time you come accross one. We come in peace and stand at our word. Come one, come all, you will not find us wanting. The purpose of the alliance as a whole, is to provide a bastion against the dark and a refuge in adversity. The only promise that we would ever make that could look even remotely aggressive is that we will, severally and together, hunt down and destroy enemies of civilisation. Lord High Seneschal to Ur-Lord Tedric <OOC> And yes, as has been said before, we know that many will look on this as naive and possibly even quite silly, but because this is a game we know that we can try - and try I will. So, try us and see. With the GSL and myself you are at least able to try and play any style you wish. With others there is only paranoia and war. We're going to see if Peace and Trade are an option. I'll bet there isn't a player here who wasn't broughgt up on Star Trek - well, let's see if it can be done...........! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWillard Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 <OOC> And yes, as has been said before, we know that many will look on this as naive and possibly even quite silly, but because this is a game we know that we can try - and try I will. So, try us and see. With the GSL and myself you are at least able to try and play any style you wish. With others there is only paranoia and war. We're going to see if Peace and Trade are an option. I'll bet there isn't a player here who wasn't broughgt up on Star Trek - well, let's see if it can be done...........! See, by trying to argue a particular point or two (or three or four :lol: ) I have been totally misunderstood. I do not see the GSL or its stated ideals as naive or silly. However, if I see inconsistancies, hipocricy, abuse, potential abuse, etc. I obviously have no problem separating myself from the issue and pointing them out. It's not about trying to slander or discredit the GSL. It's more about seeing if the members of the GSL are going to live up to its ideals. I mentioned these conerns way back when the formation of the GSL was first announced on the old board. I don't remember exactly but it may have even been before the first turn was run. So here we are many turns later and at the first signs of conflict I see some of my initial concerns coming to light. The Exelonian Concordium/NSI deal is a prime example. I'm glad you brought up Star Trek. I guess it's just my interpretation but I certainly don't see the Federation (of Star Trek) handling this (and other proposed situations) like I'm seeing and hearing. Especially considering WKE's latest statement "My only other choice is to become aggressive and hunt down his other ships." Being shot at by an alien in his own territory who does not want to communicate with you would not be a reason for all out war to the Federation. I know the GSL and WKE are not the Federation. I also would not expect WKE to wait till the NSI came blazing out three or four systems before finally treating him as a threat. But come on, you don't have any proof (or at least havn't revealed any) that the NSI is doing anything but defending his territory. If the members of the GSL are supposed to be like minded and they are truely interested in maintaining peace, this certainly is not the way to go about it. If it's done anything it has assured a war (especially with his last statement - either talk to me or I kill you). If WKE is supposed to be the "Good Guy" (and if he's not then why is he in the GSL, maybe just to participate in the info sharing?) then it is up to him to prevent the situation from escalating. And contrary to popular belief, you do NOT need verbal communication to prevent a war. Actions speak louder than words. I say that the ball is in WKE's court. If he wants a war, he's got it. If he wants to maintain peace, he has a chance to do that too. Although I do admit that the chance is slim, as a "Good Guy" I think he ought to at least try. How do you do that when the guy will not communicate verbally? Be creative. I'm sure you and other members of the GSL can come up with something. At the very least you could quit sending ships into his system. If he then attacks out... well that's another matter entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Aleen Empire Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Hmmm so what do you think should be done, stick ones head in the sand and hope NSI goes away? The way I see it, WKE's only option is to send in a ship to SURV the other WP and hope that it returns back to the other system. Now since he is there he should and I would (as well as EVERYONE else would), scan that system too. Now I would keep sending messages to this NSI player asking to talk. Now I would not go any further at this point, and when he could I would exit that system. Now I would keep also exploring as well too. Plus remember to, it was WKE whom brought this up, and if he were doing something mean/nasty/dark...he would have said nothing at all...AND NO ONE would have ever known. This little detail seems to be total forgotten , WKE is the one still seeking contact with this player position. Just something to think about... Kumbayah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan Elder 'Keen Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 I guess it's just my interpretation but I certainly don't see the Federation (of Star Trek) handling this (and other proposed situations) like I'm seeing and hearing. Especially considering WKE's latest statement "My only other choice is to become aggressive and hunt down his other ships." Being shot at by an alien in his own territory who does not want to communicate with you would not be a reason for all out war to the Federation. I know the GSL and WKE are not the Federation. I also would not expect WKE to wait till the NSI came blazing out three or four systems before finally treating him as a threat. But come on, you don't have any proof (or at least havn't revealed any) that the NSI is doing anything but defending his territory. There are still diplomatic solutions to this entanglements if that is the true desire. Even with the stated problem of no JSS on the cruiser in question, there are a variety of ways to pusue peace. Scuttle the damaged ship without mapping the system would be the strongest move. Alternatively, waiting a turn or two while a JSS mapping ship comes to find a way home accompanied by a public statement (since there is no private communication at the moment) of this intent seems reasonable. But jumping in more "protective" forces escalated this "accident" to a whole different level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan Elder 'Keen Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Plus remember to, it was WKE whom brought this up, and if he were doing something mean/nasty/dark...he would have said nothing at all...AND NO ONE would have ever known. This little detail seems to be total forgotten , WKE is the one still seeking contact with this player position. I can not speak for others, but I see a concern that public waffling about these events could be purposefully done as an excuse to eventually lead to war. Just review this thread to see how NCI has already been branded an "aggressive" "xenophobe". As I stated in my last post, there remain diplomatic solutions to this issue. Throwing hands up in the air and claiming war is unavoidable would justify the concerns of observers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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