Lord Valvvyn Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I was just reading some postings where players were complaining that battles were not being properly triggered during convoy execution. Apparently this has been a bug in the game for years. There are other ancient problems with the game that there is no evidence any progress is being made towards fixing. And there are parts of the game that simply were never finished. I won't make a laundry list here as that has been done elsewhere and I think everyone here knows to what I am referring. So I am raising this topic for discussion here as to whether the game should be paused to give Pete time to work on it. He apparently does not have enough time to both process orders and fix the bugs. If we paused the game for a month or two, that would give him a chance to catch his breath and make some real fixes and improvements in the game plus have time to do some thorough testing. Those that wanted to could submit a turn for processing that he could use in his testing. Pete could back up the database, make his changes/fixes, then run the test turns. Once done he could restore the database from backup for another test run as needed, without risking problems with real turns. I'm sure those relatively new to the game or locked in an exciting war are not anxious to have everything put on hold for several weeks, but there may be others that have been playing nonstop for years that would benefit from a short break. However the main intention of this suggestion is to give Pete time to fix the game and make improvements that he is too busy to do while processing turns every 2 weeks. I for one would be happy to see the game frozen for a couple months if I knew when it restarted that the ancient bugs would be fixed and some improvements made. Given the scale of the game it would be a small price to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Uriel Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I doubt Pete is spending time on this between processing. I believe he has a normal job and this is a part time gig. A pause would mean lost income, not a chance to fix things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breoghan Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 A pause of a month wouldn't have any effect on me personally because I am by nature a very patient man when I have to be. I have seen this idea tried in other games I have been involved in over the years though - where the number of active players has dropped off after such a pause. This, like many others of its kind, is a game that players get utterly absorbed into. They are not simply moving pieces around a tabletop board for an hour or two of instant competitive gratification. Like the game area, the game is multidimensional - both in the virtual 'physical' dimension and in the mental. To play it is to play IN it; to be involved in it. (The simple proof of this is the length of real-time players are willing to wait for developements in research, world building or combat operations - and all simply as a routine). This deep involvement/absorption would be affected by a pause, and sadly, for some, it would be permanent. Competitive people who play these games can't just switch off the need for a 'game fix' - they often take the time off from such a game-play hiatus to try something else - and being the kind of people they are, it's hard to just drop everything and go back while becoming involved in the new game-play scenario. I don't think it would do the game-play, as opposed to game-mechanics a lot of good in the long run. But that's just one opinion. I'm sure there's as many other opinions as there are other players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfouasnon Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 The game processing takes about 4 days...from Wednesday to Friday-Saturday.....that leaves 10 other days......I also doubt that he is working on the game on those days or we would see concrete changes with each turn cycle..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Deependra Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Part of the problem is we don't know what development or bug fixing Pete is doing. He IS doing work eg the sudden apperance of terrorist cells, but perhaps there are other things that could be a higher priority. Perhaps, as a community, we could decide on and present to Pete a list of the top 3 bugs and the top 3 enhancements to make the game better for all. eg Bug 1: Triggering Flag Bridge Battles Bug 2: Triggering Convoy Battles Bug 3: Stop adding surveyed warp points to the unsurveyed list when you re-survey a system Enhancement 1: Religion Enhancement 2: Cloaking Devices Enhancement 3: Recycling ie turning unwanted stockpile into Raw Resources I would be happy if we knew what Pete was working towards and we knew how he was progressing. I don't need the issues dealt with NOW, as long as I know they are coming along. And I'm not sure how I'd survive without the game for a few months :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 You are proposing stopping the game in the hopes of giving Pete time to work on issues or enhancements. But, I seriously doubt a stoppage would give him very much extra time. Think about it. Turns are due 12 AM Wednesday. He won't start processing them until Wednesday morning at the earliest. But he can't dedicate all of Wed, Thur, and Fri on the process. No, as someone pointed out his real life will take a lot of the time. He can probably only put in nights on the work. Now Pete works hard for this game, and spends long hours late into Friday night and early Saturday if needed processing turns and getting out mails. But all that means is the most time he would get back (if not having to process turns) is some time Wed Night, Some time Thur, and the late Fri/Sat time. That Fri/Sat time is meaningless as you do NOT want to be coding or fixing problems when blurry eyed around midnight. All you'll get are MORE problems and issues. So at most, I would estimate he would get ... oh .. about 10-12 hours of real extra time every two weeks that could be dedicated to enhancing or fixing the program. Now if you proposed stopping the game for one full year, THAT might be enough time to do something. But I doubt RTG could survive the income loss for that long. Heck the income loss for one month might be bad enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurassier Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 For about the past 4 months or so, I have been debating whether or not to continue playing. I've been in it since day one and have seen the whole gamit of things going on. It's not difficult to come to the conclusion that we are paying to playtest a game that is not complete. I've been going along with this for years in the hope that things will improve. From all the posts and conversations with other players, it would appear that not much has changed lately and there are still many bugs that require Pete's direct intervention. If my allies told be that they were leaving the game, I'd be gone in a heart beat. The ONLY reason I am playing at the moment is because I have allies that may need me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I'm a little behind on this cycle as it is, but will very carefully watch the convoy route execution phase to make sure battles trigger as expected. I've seen some cases not trigger lately, and that's not good. By watching each trigger instance during this run I expect to be able to track down why some don't trigger during convoys when others do. Oh, I'm not going to put the game on hold. Though there are issues that need correcting in the code, they are far and way the exception rather than the rule. Countless hundreds of thousands of orders are processed without any hiccups at all - a few details here and there are not earth shattering, but definitely need to be looked into as even minor problems are still problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Capitan Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I'm still loving the game and have no intention of quiting. There are still too many adversaries that must be purged from the galaxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locklyn Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I think this raises another and even more important question...where is the game going? Will the missing pieces like religion, cloaking devices and other such things be brought in? Will there be new developments in the game or are we content running it as a wargame? Is there enough time for Pete to fix things to he can run the game with the initially planned features or is everyone content to just let it be as it is and generate income until the next game comes along? Does Pete have any plans, thoughts or ideas that he'd like to implement for SNROE or is his view that it is a finished game?` I agree with an earlier sentiment. Had it not been for my allies I had been gone years ago... /Locklyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chairman lar Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I'm still loving the game and have no intention of quiting. There are still too many adversaries that must be purged from the galaxy. Well said, Cap, couldn't agree more. I question the intention of even opening this thread in the first place. If this issue had been discussed with Pete first and he said 'Go ahead & see how they feel about it', OK. If this is a way of garnerring support before presenting some list of demands to Pete, count me out. Breoghan's analysis of being IN the game is absolutely correct. The only 'instant gratification' is getting your turn results back; the rest is cause & effect. True, there are elements that don't quite work as anticipated; but they are a small precentage of the overall game and I'll accept them as 'Fog of War'. I, too, have gone back over both mine & others 'glitches' and I find that all but a couple were the result of not reading the rules carefully enough or some other mistake on my part. The others were quickly addressed by both Pete & Russ and I was back on track. Every turn is a learning experience which, to my mind, is the real focus of this game. Given the amount of players, there is a very small amount of actual combat going on; to stop the game to correct their idea of 'bugs' does the rest of us a dis-service. I think the real problem may be with the mis-conception this is a 'war game'. It's a strategy & logistics game that has 'war' elements. If you want a 'war' game; send those Behemoths out with ROE Tango and quit worrying about the pesky little details. There's entirely too much carping about why things didn't work out the way you wanted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelnett_of_Kraan Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 As a race with a strong focus on religion, we disagree. The point-buy system is supposed to keep things balanced between starting races. Government choices cost no points, therefore they should all be inherently balanced with each other. This is not the case. We started the game as a bureaucratic theocracy, producing lots (and LOTS) of administrators and religious leaders to boost our production and hopefully provide divine help to our hives. When we encountered hostile aliens (the horrific but ever-so-tasty doughians of the Kookie Regime) we REVO'd to a theocratic technocracy. (OOC: This was a planned change from the beginning. I wanted to see how quickly a purely pacifistic race could switch over to a war footing. The infrastructure boost from those first couple years is staggering, but the lag in weapons tech evened it out.) We have to say that any race who starts without 'technocra' in its government is asking to die. Scientists and explorers are a potent combination, more than offsetting any research bonuses missed in the racial design phase. Anyway, our point is that religion has been sadly neglected in any phase of coding. It's good that our religious leaders help production like administrators (though not to as great an extent) but when we have three pages every cycle of them praying at Grand Cathedrals and earning favor in the eys of the Gods, we want that to actually DO something. We don't think a one-month pause is a good idea, but we could see stepping down to a four-week turn cycle for a bit. Depending on how long it continues, we'd even be willing to pay $6 on the off-weeks if it meant real work would get done on the game we've been playtesting for five years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LenLorek Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I was just reading some postings where players were complaining that battles were not being properly triggered during convoy execution. Apparently this has been a bug in the game for years. There are other ancient problems with the game that there is no evidence any progress is being made towards fixing. And there are parts of the game that simply were never finished. I won't make a laundry list here as that has been done elsewhere and I think everyone here knows to what I am referring. So I am raising this topic for discussion here as to whether the game should be paused to give Pete time to work on it. He apparently does not have enough time to both process orders and fix the bugs. If we paused the game for a month or two, that would give him a chance to catch his breath and make some real fixes and improvements in the game plus have time to do some thorough testing. Those that wanted to could submit a turn for processing that he could use in his testing. Pete could back up the database, make his changes/fixes, then run the test turns. Once done he could restore the database from backup for another test run as needed, without risking problems with real turns. I'm sure those relatively new to the game or locked in an exciting war are not anxious to have everything put on hold for several weeks, but there may be others that have been playing nonstop for years that would benefit from a short break. However the main intention of this suggestion is to give Pete time to fix the game and make improvements that he is too busy to do while processing turns every 2 weeks. I for one would be happy to see the game frozen for a couple months if I knew when it restarted that the ancient bugs would be fixed and some improvements made. Given the scale of the game it would be a small price to pay. Who is this Lord Valvvyn, joined the boards on Nov 7 2003, Prime Minister of the Galcatic Star League (GSL)? Is he any relation to Lord Valwyn, joined the boards on Jun 30 2003, formerly a member of the Galactic Star league (GSL) until it was disbanded several years ago? Are we witnessing the hijacking of ids again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chairman lar Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Exactly my point, my Nectar-Seeking friend! You began as one & switched to another [planned or otherwise], thus taking advantage of both the learning curve & flexibility the game provides. Had the Kookie thing not worked out, I'm sure we'd have seen another incarnation of the Master of Mead appear, better armed & informed. I don't believe, after playing 3 versions of SuperNova, that this game was ever intended to be simple & straight forward as some would like. I'm the first to admit there are things that could be improved, but this infinately preferably to anything else that's out there. Your're not locked into just one way to approach it from the beginning. I, myself, took your previous observation of the Religious limits and went the other way. I found myself being overrun with Acolytes & got rid of some institutions; thus bringing them under control and furnishing me with a plethora of Special Agents & Detectives instead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chairman lar Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Who is this Lord Valvvyn, joined the boards on Nov 7 2003, Prime Minister of the Galcatic Star League (GSL)?Is he any relation to Lord Valwyn, joined the boards on Jun 30 2003, formerly a member of the Galactic Star league (GSL) until it was disbanded several years ago? Are we witnessing the hijacking of ids again? Glad I'm not the only one suspicious of 2 posts in 6 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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