GenCon

[Moonshadow]

No, No No, I was totally wrong, we should have exact coord'inates NOW!

 

 

Whapo wants to know!

 

 

Also, the star directory, should have the coordinates added, to claim a world.

 

 

[Steve_Kort]

The thing is Pete you would know the x,y,z coordinates to these places with just simple research of your stars with astronomy stations

 

True. In fact - we humans have X,Y,Z coordinates to THOUSANDS of star systems right now :lol:

 

A quick counterpoint to Pete:

 

If in SN:ROTE you knew the exact XYZ coordinates, you might run into a neighbor on your "right". Another player who you have not yet contacted in the game runs into the same empire, but he sees him to his "left"....

 

We have that situation now...without the disclosure of the full star map.

 

Problem - even if we know that the neighbor is "in-between" us - it doesn't mean the two empires can easily squeeze him because of how the map is usually laid out. (e.g. we have to run through hex-like rings of systems with high class warp points and one-ways)

 

Heck - even if I knew EXACTLY where the HW was - the defender still has a tremendous advantage - and with time - can put up a hell of a fight.

 

What this issue translates to is: Longevity.

 

Under the current system, we are all playing "hide and seek" from each other even though some of us are right next door to each other. The game has tons of advantages for the defender...which translates to: its tough to die - which translates to - fill out more turn sheets (okay, and 'balance' - people were getting wiped out too quickly in SNII)

 

I'm just being honest here.

 

Some players might have preferred the aggressive design game because things would happen a lot faster. SNROTE is SNII in slow motion from many peoples viewpoint - and SNROTE is much deeper in several regards -you either accept or reject it for what it is.

 

Perhaps in a separate RTG game, the "hammer"-style play of SNII will re-emerge.

 

Until then - we must be content with knocking down Warp Points and mapping the systems blindly.

 

A part of me hates not having the map laid out - and another part of me enjoys the mystery of it all.

 

Regardless: it is what it is.

My point is this. I may know the x,y,z of a system in the game but without the system name and what its WP's hook up to its worthless unless someone tells me who found it. Only then does it have any meaning. We know nothing about these stars at x,y,z until we have found WP's to them. So why would we not know all the stars x,y,z near us. We have no way of knowing right now if a WP goes 1/2 way accross the galaxy or not unless Pete says something. Who is to say that one of the closest systems to you is not even able to get back to you with out traveling through 18 WP's. With out knowing how WP's were set up and designed in the game you have no way of knowing how to get to any system in the game except through WP busting. I really see no reason to hide the x,y,z info in the game. If I am going to make a map it should be accurate or it is of no value.

[EternusIV]

I see more clearly now, Steve.

 

True.

 

Maybve the fear is that if you know my HW coords are (13,4,-1) that you can look at your map and point right at teh star system you need to get to....even if we all have (0,0,0) as our HWs, you could take a damn good guess at where it might be?

I don't know. That seems to be what Pete is alluding to.

 

Either way - the underlying fear seems to be that a fully disclosed map would speed up the hunting process just enough to throw a wrench into the 'balanced' engine...only Pete really knows the answer to that.

 

When I map in 3-d, I presume uniform distance for each warp route now. I also place systems as equidistant from each other as possible. Its the best I can think of for now...but yes...my scientific commuinty gets a big 'F' for accuracy :lol:

[SargonKingOfSlith]

Steve, I have to agree to disagree with you on this.

 

It is true that in the Real World we have already plotted xyz coordinates for many stars. And if we were able to travel to one of those stars it would actually become exponentially easier to plot the coordinates of more stars through the process of triangulation.

 

However SNROTE isn’t the real world, it is a game. I believe in this case that game balance is more important than simulated realism.

 

Reading between the lines, it looks to me like the Home Worlds may be spaced evenly apart in a nice geometric lattice-like pattern. If an alliance of players knew the coordinates of their star systems then they should be able to determine the shape of that geometric pattern. It also appears (reading between the lines) that warp links generally stick close to nearby stars for the most part. If these assumptions were true then it would be easy to head in the general direction of one of those nodal points where a Home World should be located. You wouldn’t be able to head strait there in a beeline course, but you could significantly reduce the time it takes to locate Home Worlds

 

That is undesirable for game balance and customer retention.

[SargonKingOfSlith]

Whew!!!

 

Two posts in the same day, the world must be coming to an end!

[WKE235]

Steve, I have to agree to disagree with you on this.

 

It is true that in the Real World we have already plotted xyz coordinates for many stars.  And if we were able to travel to one of those stars it would actually become exponentially easier to plot the coordinates of more stars through the process of triangulation.

 

However SNROTE isn’t the real world, it is a game.  I believe in this case that game balance is more important than simulated realism.

 

Reading between the lines, it looks to me like the Home Worlds may be spaced evenly apart in a nice geometric lattice-like pattern.  If an alliance of players knew the coordinates of their star systems then they should be able to determine the shape of that geometric pattern.  It also appears (reading between the lines) that warp links generally stick close to nearby stars for the most part.  If these assumptions were true then it would be easy to head in the general direction of one of those nodal points where a Home World should be located.  You wouldn’t be able to head strait there in a beeline course, but you could significantly reduce the time it takes to locate Home Worlds

 

That is undesirable for game balance and customer retention.

You need to add in that Rolling Thunder policies allow players to trade empires, or to have multiple positions next to each other. Imagine all the fun when those players who carry out such trades work it out so (1) they have two empires next to each other AND they can figure out the most likely route between them for quick contact and trading, -or- (2) they trade so they end up with two empires where they know a another empire must be between them, so they carry out a two pronged attack to take the middle one down. Yes, there are those playing the game who would use x/y/z coordinates like this to gain any advantage in the game they could. I'm sure the cunning (or dasterdly) among them could come up with even more ways to twist real coordinates against the other players.

 

As a result, I think RTG would have to change game play policies to really reign things in (preventing pickups of dropped positions, no trades, more changes...) to ensure the x/y/z coordinates would not lead to some of the worst possible abuses and ensure the game is as balanced as it is now. But such changes would likely cut into their revenue stream. SO as much as I would like such coordinates just to have fun with mapping, we will never, ever, get the x/y/z coordinates, no matter how much we beg, pled, or cajole. Not even a good old fashioned temper tantrun will do. Oh well.... I'll just have to be happy with all the other fine features in the game. :lol:

[Ur Lord Tedric]

From the other perspective.....

 

Whilst it would be 'realistic' to know the actual x,y,z of a system, it is the WP links that matter.

 

Provided 'you' have a map that is topographically correct, and I suspect we all do, then it is the links and the route map that make up the strategic picture we need.

 

If you have a map that makes sense and provides the functionality you need, then you don't need anything else.

 

In fact, whilst I might well try out the new programme, I currently cannot see me getting away from my 2-D Excel map, which shows all I need to control my movement and has hyperlinks to all my system data. The only thing that becomes difficult is when the actual 3-D nature causes some strange linkage that then has to be represented by a certain amount of re-drawing....

 

Mx

[Paradigm]

Mapping is a big downside of SN3. It's time consuming and except for a vocal few, is drudgery for most players. It's not too painful for those with fancy software and computer skills (over represented here), but for those without, it pretty much stinks.

 

The biggest pain about mapping is not knowing where to place newly surveyed systems in relation to other systems. As an empire grows, the map ends up with more and more cross links and it becomes a tangled mess. Due to a shortage of inexpensive real world holographic 3D computer displays, the 2D mapping exacerbates this map tangling. Not knowing the (X,Y) distance also complicates mapping. A newly surveyed WP might link nearby, or clear across the map for all we know. Some players may truly enjoy spending countless hours massaging their maps, but I suppose there are masochists in any group. I want to spend a few hours every 2 weeks writing my orders, not fiddling with an inaccurate map.

 

Having read both sides of the argument here, I believe the advantages of knowing the X,Y,Z coordinates in relation to the HW (not the "real" coordinates, but HW (0,0,0) offset coordinates) and the resulting simplification of mapping far outweigh any concerns of making it easier for someone to find his neighbor's HW. Since the real coordinates are not known, the aggressor cannot simply head in the direction of the defender's HW. In all but extreme cases, the hunter will be following the bread crumbs of alien ship sightings. If the defender spends turn sheets pulling back all ships to deny those bread crumbs, the hunter can just throw his own turn sheets (I.e. money) at the problem and blanket the area with survey ships. Survey ships are cheap enough to build. The pacifist's HW can try to hide for awhile, but it can't run.

 

Based on the available information, the end result is that knowing HW offset coordinates will greatly simplify mapping and save countless hours of mapping drudgery for most players. Hours that they can spend working on their orders or in other real life pursuits. It may making finding a neighbor's HW slightly easier depending on a number of factors. Not knowing the HW offset coordinates is not going to keep a head-in-the-sand empire safe from an aggressive neighbor. Knowing the HW offset coordinates is not going to allow alliances spread all over the map to gang up on lone empires as happened in SN2.

 

The biggest reason people drop out of games is because the amount of work starts exceeding the amount of fun. Trying to maintain a map with a minimal amount of tangling is becoming a lot of work for me, and I know I'm not alone in this.

[crossroads]

I totally agree with you.

 

The biggest reason people drop out of games is because the amount of work starts exceeding the amount of fun.

 

This is the very reason why I quit "Legends". It was starting to look like work.

 

I already spend about two full evenings for writing the orders alone. I spend several days thinking about the orders. I spent many hours on our Info sharing group. Maintaining contacts, revising the guide, etc. I really do not want to spent many hours on mapping also. Time is limited and it is costing enough already.

[Hughestrog]

Mapping?

 

You all map?

 

Well there's something else I'm not doing!

 

Mind you, I only know a few systems (damned Class D warp points).

 

For my 2p worth, the galactic map is probably more simple than anyone thinks, and it would spoil all this fun you're all evidently having if you knew the x,y,z.

 

Although every race would call their HW 0,0,0 (after all, who'd agree where the Galactic Centre is) and RTG would label each system as you found it with coordinates relevant to your HW. You'd all end up individual references anyway (much as you've all already got), and it would only make sense when you meet other people and swapped info with them.

 

Right, that's me done.

[crossroads]

Mapping?

 

You all map?

 

Well there's something else I'm not doing!

 

Mind you, I only know a few systems (damned Class D warp points).

 

For my 2p worth, the galactic map is probably more simple than anyone thinks, and it would spoil all this fun you're all evidently having if you knew the x,y,z.

 

Although every race would call their HW 0,0,0 (after all, who'd agree where the Galactic Centre is) and RTG would label each system as you found it with coordinates relevant to your HW. You'd all end up individual references anyway (much as you've all already got), and it would only make sense when you meet other people and swapped info with them.

 

Right, that's me done.

If you know 10 or less systems it might not be needed to map them. But what if you know about 40? Or a hundred?

 

If have seen an elder post 40 systems (after playing 2 years). Can you imagine what you know about 3, 4 or ... years? The amount known will grow faster and faster because ships become faster and faster. You will have to map them at one time in the future. Can you imagine what a chaos it will give with all those strings from system to system and you do not know the coördinates? Let alone if you only use a 2-d map.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

40....

 

The map we're currently maintaining has nearly 250 systems on it. It's okay, but it is indeed getting harder to cope with some of the latest discovered links.....

 

Chief Cartographer to Ur-Lord Tedric (who got missed off the other post )

 

PS We'll certainly defer to the Powers That Be, but we understand the effort involved....

[crossroads]

40....

 

The map we're currently maintaining has nearly 250 systems on it.  It's okay, but it is indeed getting harder to cope with some of the latest discovered links.....

 

Chief Cartographer to Ur-Lord Tedric (who got missed off the other post  )

 

PS  We'll certainly defer to the Powers That Be, but we understand the effort involved....

Ok, 250 systems after two years. Thats also about 250 * 3 warppoints = 750. Guess the chaos after two more years.

 

Lets face it. Lone empires will always lose from alliances sooner or later. Hiding coördinates will not change that. If maintaining a map becomes anoying, the game becomes anoying and when a game becomes anoying people will stop playing. It is as simple as that.

[Eldred]

Having regard to Pete's comments on this I don't think its possible to introduce relative co-ordinates without threatening much of the balance of this game - Pete obviously has major concerns about this.

 

However...if we ever get to see a sequel to SN-ROTE, then I believe this could be accommodated without giving away too many clues about homeworld locations. In short the solution is for each star system to have a hidden number but to have no generic name - so each empire has to name the stars they can see (and map) - eg "UNNAMED Red Dwarf, relative co-ordinates: x,y,z". This way empires can indeed map the entire galaxy, but sharing mapping information would prove very problematic unless you had actually managed to make contact with the empire you wish to share it with and were able match their star names to yours! It would of course mean the end for the Galactic Directory!

 

Having said that, if all empires turn out to be evenly spaced out in some sort of matrix, it still wouldn't stop people making good educated guesses at empire's home systems

[Paradigm]

Having said that, if all empires turn out to be evenly spaced out in some sort of matrix, it still wouldn't stop people making good educated guesses at empire's home systems

It depends on how evenly they are spaced and how often WP's connect to the nearest systems. If WP's link within a fairly wide radius, then trying to get nearer a suspected HW location may not be easy. You may often find yourself getting very near the suspected HW location only to find you've gone down a dead end, or have gotten very close but there is no final connection down that path.

 

The amount of randomness in WP link distances would also affect how tangled a map based on X,Y,Z coordinates would be. It's theoretically possible that knowing the X,Y,Z coordinates and drawing warp links between them might result in a more tangled map than the pure guesswork system.

 

Only Pete and Russ know these variables. I'm just not sure from Pete's posts whether he's thought through all of the factors or whether he's just against giving out coordinates in general because of the problems they caused with SN2.

 

I'm quite familiar with node/edge mapping issues from playing Starfire campaigns.