GenCon

[Lord Xaar]

I was going to say that 40 was nothing for a core position, then the estimable Ur Lord's spokes-being dashed my pretensions with 250 systems!

 

I have somewhere between 40 and 250 and basically have come to terms with the fact that my maps are a mess of scribbles. It's migrated onto several sheets of paper for the different sectors, and I have a separate spreadsheet to monitor warp points, planet details, terrain, etc.

 

It's not exactly easy to maintain all the info some weeks, but overall I have a good sense of what's where. Unless this Astrosynthesis program can be adjusted enough to meet our needs I don't see this getting easier but I also don't see it getting harder. I'm hopeful that the program works out for all of us.

 

And if someone is kind enough to share a parsing program with us, well, this game may well just get easy...

 

-LX

[ali-t-akua]

As someone who has only uncovered a few systems like Hughestrog, I wonder what the more experienced players perceive the benefits are to mapping. The only thing I can think of is to be able to find the shortest path between two systems. Are there others?

[Kurassier]

I wonder what the more experienced players perceive the benefits are to mapping.

 

As someone who has been in this since day one, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, a mapping program would be wonderful!! My pages are getting quite ratty adding the thousands of scanned systems! (ok, maybe just hundreds ) Overlaps, oneways, StarBars oneway, loops, loops and more loops.......

 

Oh, and yes a mapping program would be useful.

[cestvel]

So, if there are no coordinates, is it at least possible to come up with the length of

the warpconnection you are just gone through? This would help to lay out your map more accurate.

 

On the othe hand, I just use a pathfinding program to find the shortest (or least fuel consuming) path

between systems. The map is just to get a quick look, before entering the data into the program.

 

Cestvel

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Now that's a very interesting point of view...

 

Certainly with only a relatively 'few' systems to think of, especially if there aren't many, if any, cross links - then just knowing the WP links/interrelationships is sufficient....and you can keep it in your head, then all to the good - me, I know I'm clever, but I couldn't do that now.......

 

However, mapping is second nature to me as I'm a very visually oriented kind of guy and I'm far more comfortable with a picture. But I'm also a great believer in using the tools - in my case, dear old Excel - I couldn't seriously run the Star League without it. However, I'm very comfortable with using it and it's not for everybody.

 

If I didn't have it, I suspect I'd be back to a pin board with paper tags and additional numbered pins for my fleets, along with a card file/rolodex.....ah, those were the days

 

Certainly, when it's time to organise moving forces to cover potential lines of attack and there a several 'route's to choose from, having that picture is very useful.....

 

Mx

[Steve_Kort]

Steve, I have to agree to disagree with you on this.

 

It is true that in the Real World we have already plotted xyz coordinates for many stars. And if we were able to travel to one of those stars it would actually become exponentially easier to plot the coordinates of more stars through the process of triangulation.

 

However SNROTE isn’t the real world, it is a game. I believe in this case that game balance is more important than simulated realism.

 

Reading between the lines, it looks to me like the Home Worlds may be spaced evenly apart in a nice geometric lattice-like pattern. If an alliance of players knew the coordinates of their star systems then they should be able to determine the shape of that geometric pattern. It also appears (reading between the lines) that warp links generally stick close to nearby stars for the most part. If these assumptions were true then it would be easy to head in the general direction of one of those nodal points where a Home World should be located. You wouldn’t be able to head strait there in a beeline course, but you could significantly reduce the time it takes to locate Home Worlds

 

That is undesirable for game balance and customer retention.

Again I am not suggesting we get pete's coordinate's of x,y,z or our entire star map of things near us. But our own x,y,z that is accurate for us, basing things off of us being 0,0,0. This would make your map totally accurate for your empire and easy for Pete to give you those numbers by simply subtracting the real coordinates of your HW from all your known system. You would only have the x,y,z in relation to your empire and would only know the x,y,z to those systems that you have WP's connected to with your empire. The others are unknown or at least not certain.

 

I have no idea how anyone could use this info to find others easier. You have no idea what system they are in. Even if they gave you there system and x,y,z they are irrelevant to you, unless you are connected in some manner. Now if you were connected and shared your info then you could use and combine the two, but that would be the only time I can see it helping you. If players choose to share that info with others then they take the risk or perks from doing just that. But in no way have you shown anyone how to get to some place faster or where they may be at. Someone tell me where this info would help you find someone without them giving you there data.

 

Steve

[Steve_Kort]

I see more clearly now, Steve.

 

True.

 

Maybve the fear is that if you know my HW coords are (13,4,-1) that you can look at your map and point right at teh star system you need to get to....even if we all have (0,0,0) as our HWs, you could take a damn good guess at where it might be?

I don't know. That seems to be what Pete is alluding to.

 

Either way - the underlying fear seems to be that a fully disclosed map would speed up the hunting process just enough to throw a wrench into the 'balanced' engine...only Pete really knows the answer to that.

 

When I map in 3-d, I presume uniform distance for each warp route now. I also place systems as equidistant from each other as possible. Its the best I can think of for now...but yes...my scientific commuinty gets a big 'F' for accuracy :lol:

Eternus IV

 

I would have no idea where your HW was in relation to mine if we both had 0,0,0 for our HW unless we had managed to share a system and compared our x,y,z to convert each others maps. Unless that took place I have no idea if your empire is next to mine or anyone elses. We are not sharing distances and we will not get x,y,z of systems we have not scanned. So where is the risk of someone finding us.

 

Steve

[T'Aleen Empire]

Ok I think that most folks think if the GM's gave out the actual X,Y,Zs of locations that players would be able to quickly determine that ; player A is that way, and player B is over there, and player C is that total opposite direction and player D must be over there on the other side of player A...etc.

 

Now as Steve has said, if the GM's were to assign 0,0,0 to each players HW system and base their known stars off that perspective, that would mask a systems true position for a while. Now I did say for a while, but as one were to link up with more players and make more joint connections, it would begin to allow for players to determin the GM's formula and "break" their code. All each empire would have to do is get connected and map out three common systems and compare the results to determine what the +/- was offset from the HW 0,0,0 set to figure it out.

 

Penn

[crossroads]

Ok I think that most folks think if the GM's gave out the actual X,Y,Zs of locations that players would be able to quickly determine that ; player A is that way, and player B is over there, and player C is that total opposite direction and player D must be over there on the other side of player A...etc.

 

Now as Steve has said, if the GM's were to assign 0,0,0 to each players HW system and base their known stars off that perspective, that would mask a systems true position for a while. Now I did say for a while, but as one were to link up with more players and make more joint connections, it would begin to allow for players to determin the GM's formula and "break" their code. All each empire would have to do is get connected and map out three common systems and compare the results to determine what the +/- was offset from the HW 0,0,0 set to figure it out.

 

Penn

So we find each other sooner. So what? Sooner or later we do know were everyone is in the neighbourhood. Empires will be destroyed sooner or later. It does not really matter in the end that it took a year later because we do not have the coördinates now. Virtual alliances (they have not met in the game) will know who is between them. Because if two people have seen the same player big chance they are also close to each other.

 

It does not outweight the more easy playing of the game. I do not really see the need to spent hours to map the galaxy.

[T'Aleen Empire]

Well for me, I would only share my data with those few that I trust and anyone I bump into. Those local neighbors that one would have will have to still map out all your systems and you theirs anyway to be able to use this data within game.

 

The only real perk to this all, is that after a while one would have a idea where others might be found in virtual space in relation to what your empire actually knows/has mapped out. Is that important, well it helps to focus your efforts.

 

I think this is a good think...

 

Penn

[EternusIV]

I started a poll in a separate thread for kicks.

 

-- If we get actual distances (which I asked for about four months ago ), the mapping algorithm would be more easily solved (basic trig anyone?)

 

-- If we get even subjective coordinates, the mapping algorithm is more easily solved

 

-- If things stay the same, people will go insane making pencil spaghetti maps

 

Quite a dilemna

 

PS = If you actually GET Astrosynthesis, I have a nifty CSV stock file that makes importing your system names really easy. Even with Astrosynth - dragging systems around is a total pain....but it sure beats the crap out of drawing and redrawing and redrawing...even the Visio/Spreadsheet guys will save lots of time with this program once you get past the learning curve. If you get it, feel free to PM me with Q's and I can help iron out some of the quirky aspects of getting around the map.

[SargonKingOfSlith]

Again I am not suggesting we get pete's coordinate's of x,y,z or our entire star map of things near us. But our own x,y,z that is accurate for us, basing things off of us being 0,0,0.

 

Steve

Its all relative.

[Krelnett_of_Kraan]

Grr.. Looks like we won't be getting AstroSynth until our player gets a new computer. PII-450 is ok for most things, but graphics and gaming ain't among 'em.

[Azuth]

Had a great time at GenCon. Unfortunately, I couldn't get access to a computer to check out where to meet. Would have loved to meet Pete and some of my fellow victims....um....neighbors. And to think I was right around the corner from Alcatraz....grrrrr.

 

Pete, you can count me in on the AstroSyn... program. I stopped by and looked at it too and it looked great. Regarding mapping the galaxy, I really enjoy doing this although it is taking longer to do but its lots of fun for me <my map is spread out on 3 pages so far>. I doesn't matter if I get real or random XYZ coordinates as long as I can map out my empire and proudly display it for all to see.

[Steve_Kort]

Ok I think that most folks think if the GM's gave out the actual X,Y,Zs of locations that players would be able to quickly determine that ; player A is that way, and player B is over there, and player C is that total opposite direction and player D must be over there on the other side of player A...etc.

 

Now as Steve has said, if the GM's were to assign 0,0,0 to each players HW system and base their known stars off that perspective, that would mask a systems true position for a while. Now I did say for a while, but as one were to link up with more players and make more joint connections, it would begin to allow for players to determin the GM's formula and "break" their code. All each empire would have to do is get connected and map out three common systems and compare the results to determine what the +/- was offset from the HW 0,0,0 set to figure it out.

 

Penn

Like I said before the only way my method allows you to know anything about other people is for them to have a shared system with you and you know each others x,y,z of that system. Otherwise the only thing it does is allow you to get is a better grasp of the systems around you and a accurate look at things.

 

If Pete chooses to not go down this path then he basically gives the people with extra time, better math skills and the like a huge advantage in the game. To think some people will not figure out the basic layout over the next 6 months is crazy. It will be far worse for Pete and everyone that a couple people have this info instead of a larger group. If its easily obtainable by all through using the program then most everyone can get this info with out all the extra work. Keeping the majority on a even playing feild.