GenCon

[crossroads]

I rather have the real coördinates. Not knowing the coördinates (relative to your own homeworld) is illogical.

 

I do not think a messy overview is funny when you have a map with several hundreds of systems (which could happen when you play a few years). If you have to drag those systems and warp points within those several hundreds of systems fun is not a word you will probably use. Maybe we should have a poll on this subject.

[RTGPete]

I understand your point, but there are a wide variety of gameplay and balance reasons to run screaming from any plan to give out real XYZ coordinates. It's simplicity itself to actually do, but has many downsides. You're already using your own XYZ's when you lay out your map right now - those would be fine entries for instant export into AstroSynthesis. Mapping out your star layout is one part of the exploration end of SN:ROTE, and I'd rather not eliminate that aspect of the game.

[EternusIV]

My two cents:

 

Not knowing the coördinates (relative to your own homeworld) is illogical.

 

I agree with you 100%

 

I think that having coordinates would be GREAT - but ruin a large portion of the game. Therefore, I'm content to accept the current format. Anytime a GM suggests we 'run away screaming' from doing something, I'm usually on board for the status quo.

 

Hundreds of systems are difficult to drag around on a 3-d program for certain....but it still beats the crap out of redrawing the systems by hand.

 

Perhaps in a brand new game, we will all have access to the entire star map? It would transfrom the game from a builder into an instant strategy-war game.

[Steve_Kort]

If you take random xyz and you adjust that in the program would that not mean that the next time you import the warp points that they are overwrittten or added or reset?

 

I rather have the real xyz coördinates with your homeworld as 0,0,0. I always wondered why they are not there. I.o.w. why it should be a problem to know them? If you are in a star system in, lets say the Milkyway, and you jump to another star system you can know where you are just by looking and comparing of locations of known stars. In the television serie Stargate it is never a problem. If coördinates are available i would also like an order to pick another point of origin in the case that two players want to connect their maps in the case they have a common star system.

We will not be giving out the real XYZ coordinates of the actual star systems. A significant portion of the fun of mapping is to figure out where your stars are in relation to each other by using the warp connections. This is especially true when you run into another player - you might have laid out some of your contact stars on the "left" side of your map, but run into him on your left and right. At that point you would have to consider the possibility that you've laid your map out in a funny way and need to rearrange some stars to get them on the same side. It's also possible that he got some ships around you and your map is fine. Real XYZ's would eliminate this aspect of the game.

 

If you like, I can forget about random XYZ's and just leave them blank in your data file - you could then assign your own, export the data (I can create a small program that will export it to AstroSynthesis' requirements) and then import into AstroSynthesis. You can change the locations from within AstroSynthesis simply by dragging the stars around.

 

In any event it's easy to add new stars from within AstroSynthesis as you scan new ones - you can add them anywhere and connect warp lines as desired.

The thing is Pete you would know the x,y,z coordinates to these places with just simple research of your stars with astronomy stations. Of course they would not be the same as yours since each empire would have there HW at 0,0,0 typically. But you would have a set point out there that the system was located. Us guessing where they go will simply have us put things where it makes the WP lines look good. After all there is no way for us to know if the WP from A to B is further than A to C. Who is to say that C could not be almost exactly between the 2 and just not have a WP. There is no way with the info we get right now that our map would be accurate or we would have any chance of making it accurate. Everyone would simply try and make the map so the WP lines do not criss-cross that much. After all how would a player know that a system at 11,24,43 does not have a WP to -11,-24,-43. The only way we would know this is by our labs giving that info when we bust through the WP. Once that happens we should no its exact location or very close to it to our other known systems.

[Palladium Regency]

I would prefer to have the co-ordinates as well and told Pete as much at GenCon. He implied that with the actual co-ordinates it would be much easier to track someones HW down. This seems illogical to me because the only way someone could get my HW co-ordinates is if I told someone or someone else found out through surveying. I suppose the co-ordinates could identify the area of space where my empire could be found, if most warp points only link to nearby co-ordinates.

 

I understand Pete's concerns though, there is apparently a significant number of players that are primarily interested in building without engaging in conflict. Anything that increases the risk of discovery for such players is not going to be viewed kindly.

[RTGPete]

And I agree with all of you

 

In a more aggressive wargame, I'd be inclined to use a 0,0,0 system (for each homeworld) or simply give out the entire map up front.

 

If in SN:ROTE you knew the exact XYZ coordinates, you might run into a neighbor on your "right". Another player who you have not yet contacted in the game runs into the same empire, but he sees him to his "left". On this message board or through an alliance, you might know that other empire's name. A quick emal later and you instantly know where that other player is, without ever having contacted him in-game. This would spread to rapidly lay out the entire galaxy. Within the current structure of SN:ROTE, that would be a bad thing, especially for smaller alliances or solo players. In a new over-the-top aggressive wargame, it might be a good thing.

[EternusIV]

The thing is Pete you would know the x,y,z coordinates to these places with just simple research of your stars with astronomy stations

 

True. In fact - we humans have X,Y,Z coordinates to THOUSANDS of star systems right now :lol:

 

A quick counterpoint to Pete:

 

If in SN:ROTE you knew the exact XYZ coordinates, you might run into a neighbor on your "right". Another player who you have not yet contacted in the game runs into the same empire, but he sees him to his "left"....

 

We have that situation now...without the disclosure of the full star map.

 

Problem - even if we know that the neighbor is "in-between" us - it doesn't mean the two empires can easily squeeze him because of how the map is usually laid out. (e.g. we have to run through hex-like rings of systems with high class warp points and one-ways)

 

Heck - even if I knew EXACTLY where the HW was - the defender still has a tremendous advantage - and with time - can put up a hell of a fight.

 

What this issue translates to is: Longevity.

 

Under the current system, we are all playing "hide and seek" from each other even though some of us are right next door to each other. The game has tons of advantages for the defender...which translates to: its tough to die - which translates to - fill out more turn sheets (okay, and 'balance' - people were getting wiped out too quickly in SNII)

 

I'm just being honest here.

 

Some players might have preferred the aggressive design game because things would happen a lot faster. SNROTE is SNII in slow motion from many peoples viewpoint - and SNROTE is much deeper in several regards -you either accept or reject it for what it is.

 

Perhaps in a separate RTG game, the "hammer"-style play of SNII will re-emerge.

 

Until then - we must be content with knocking down Warp Points and mapping the systems blindly.

 

A part of me hates not having the map laid out - and another part of me enjoys the mystery of it all.

 

Regardless: it is what it is.

[RTGPete]

Agreed, but you don't know the exact location of the other empire. You just know that he has contacted the same intervening empire somewhere. In a more over-the-top, who-cares-about-players-being-blown-out-of-the-game design, an open map for all to see would be more appropriate.

[Sakarissa]

Keep the x,y,z coordinates hidden. I like the warp web thing as it is right now. I enjoy the exploration portion of this game. Never can tell where you will end up when you SURV/WARP. Keep the coordinates hidden and I'll be in line to get the import program from Pete if he creates it.

 

Sakarissa

[Lord Uriel]

We New Spartans are not exactly the smartest race out there and some of the responses to the Astro thing are a little beyond the abilities of our scientists. That being said, we would still like to see someway of this tool being used by our spacefarers.

I'm not all that concerned about the details of whether it matches some "real" map or not. I just want to be able to label warp-points, worlds, systems, etc... in a manner that certainly looks better than my primitive pencil and hex paper.

 

Also, when I consider that some of the other original two year old races are giant brains with Mk X "insert your favorite gadget," I really do not want to be found by them.

 

Lord Uriel

New Sparta

WHAPO!

[Palladium Regency]

Uriel,

It isn't the original core empires you need to worry about, but the brain-in-a-jar racial empires that sprung up shortly after it was determined SRP could be used so effectively.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

I was certainly one that would have loved the x,y,z to HW at 0,0,0 to be given so we could have a 'realistic' map, there is no logical reason we shouldn't have it.

 

However, I really do get it now.....

 

In the 'real' universe, there's no way whatsoever that we'd be making alliances and agreements with races we'd never met.

 

In order for this 'game' to work, however, and give everyone an equal chance, then Uncle Pete's quite right - he doesn't expose the real co-ordinates.......

 

Pete's got to deal with fallible and petty 'humans' - and there are those out there who will 'cheat' at any cost if allowed to.....

 

I'm now 100% behind the designer in this - and he knows more than we do and is certainly a better judge of all our characters - however, 'unrealistic' this may actually be....

 

Mx

[Clan Elder 'Keen]

I'm enjoying the mapping as it is currently set up. Just about every turn there is some loop or one-way which throws my current assumptions on it's head. And the sense of mystery (until you map it out and see exactly what is what) is nice. I actually sometimes look back at older maps to see how things have changed.

[Moonshadow]

The thing is Pete you would know the x,y,z coordinates to these places with just simple research of your stars with astronomy stations

 

True. In fact - we humans have X,Y,Z coordinates to THOUSANDS of star systems right now :lol:

 

A quick counterpoint to Pete:

 

If in SN:ROTE you knew the exact XYZ coordinates, you might run into a neighbor on your "right". Another player who you have not yet contacted in the game runs into the same empire, but he sees him to his "left"....

 

We have that situation now...without the disclosure of the full star map.

 

Problem - even if we know that the neighbor is "in-between" us - it doesn't mean the two empires can easily squeeze him because of how the map is usually laid out. (e.g. we have to run through hex-like rings of systems with high class warp points and one-ways)

 

You are incorrect. If I knew a general location of a player, and knew the actual coordinates of any star I had surveyed, I could find him much faster.

Say, the system I meet him or her at has 6 warp points. I survey all six and go thru one. Knowing the coordinates of this new star I know it is further from his general location, so I go back and try another. I will reduce my number of surveys by being able to eliminate paths that go the wrong way. I may have to back track later if a path bends around, but my chances are much improved of locating him. I will also, know how far I am from the other empire that located him, and can use this to generally place him in the middle, or if both empires that found him are really close, then place him off to the side.

The wars would really begin, when a large alliance was given this info of the exact location of all its members. Looking at their maps, they would hook up much faster, as they would know instantly who was close to whom. They would also know, especially long time players, which string of warp points was headed in the correct direction, and any contacts with non alliance members could be generally plotted to determine, who could aid in attacks.

 

Gee, as a WHAPO member... I sorry.... I think knowing the exact coordinates would mean little in the game. Please publish them ASAP!!!

 

 

[EternusIV]

Lord Uriel said:

 

I'm not all that concerned about the details of whether it matches some "real" map or not. I just want to be able to label warp-points, worlds, systems, etc... in a manner that certainly looks better than my primitive pencil and hex paper.

 

Thats precisely where Astrosynthesis shines.

 

Moonshadow said:

 

You are incorrect. If I knew a general location of a player, and knew the actual coordinates of any star I had surveyed, I could find him much faster.

 

I don't see where either of us are 'incorrect' I agree with you. Of course having EXACT coordinates makes it faster. Did I say otherwise? It just takes longer without the coordinates - thats all....which tells me that the over-riding concern about not giving us coordinates has to do with something else aside from triangulating your opponents.

 

Given, obvious point:

 

If we had exact coordinates, we could crush each other much faster

 

(Q: How much faster? I say - not THAT much faster when it comes to your direct neighbors - if you know what you are doing and you get lucky)

 

Another point I agree with, Moonshadow, is the alliance advantage you describe....that could get BRUTAL

 

Here are some additional reasons why I think hidden coordinates balance the game:

 

*Hiding the coordinates discourages everyone from adopting an all-out hunter-seeker approach to empire building where "first strike wins"

 

* Hidden coordinates give empires more time to explore the other options in the game - developing horizon techs - establishing trade routes - researching obscure sections of the tech tree - etc etc etc

 

*Hidden coordinates slow down aggressive play - thereby enhancing the other parts of th game that don't involve the churn-em-and-blast-em strategy.

 

*Prevents pre-packaged alliance dominance

 

I'm fine with it.

 

(But - WHAT HAPPENS ONCE WE HAVE 200+ *CONNECTED* STAR SYSTEMS FOR ONE EMPIRE COMPLETELY MAPPED? :lol: In that case *I* would have a thorough map of the area with knowledge of where you are at - but it took me 60-70 more turns to do it)