Ur Lord Tedric Posted January 9, 2005 Report Share Posted January 9, 2005 OOC: Pete, A few things have come up recently..... We now need to know how fighters and drones work in combat. Really, we do! It's ships that we put in particular classes to which we add DL locations and F&D tactics. However, F&Ds are 'fleet' cargo. How are we supposed to allocate the correct types of F&Ds to particular tactics???? Secondly, as F&Ds are held at the 'fleet' level does this also mean they are first through WPs with the very first ship? That's ALL of them - ALL at once......?????? We do now have enough information to design ships, although we still don't know much of anything about DL-defense or what the defensive 'numbers' actually mean. But we need to know what fighters and drones are doing. We can't even get a hint from the current battle reports. After two years we now need to know how the battle system works, and that means everything. This game is not just about battles - but it's a significant part. Mx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Miles Avatar Posted January 9, 2005 Report Share Posted January 9, 2005 I asked this same question ur Lord and one of my requests was that the answers be shared with all. My questions where more specific though as I asked how the different fighter orders worked. For example what does 'Deep Strke" mean?? I'm going out on a limb here and guess that it might mean that the fightercraft of the fleet try to get past the screens and unload thier ordanance on ships 'deeper' in the enemy formation??? I also asked what 'Cover' meant. I also assumed here that fighters able to use CIDS(as most are) would use this ability to 'COVER' thier fleet against enemy fighters drones and missles. Much like a Combat Air Patrol. My reply was that fighter craft overall attack/defense strenght would be calculated based on the fighter orders used. IE the cover order would instruct the fighters to use thier point defense and those fighters best at point defense would do best. bombers for example wouldnt do so well here. I was also told that future battles would include what the fighter craft and drones were doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted January 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2005 I asked this same question ur Lord and one of my requests was that the answers be shared with all. My questions where more specific though as I asked how the different fighter orders worked. For example what does 'Deep Strke" mean?? I'm going out on a limb here and guess that it might mean that the fightercraft of the fleet try to get past the screens and unload thier ordanance on ships 'deeper' in the enemy formation??? I also asked what 'Cover' meant. I also assumed here that fighters able to use CIDS(as most are) would use this ability to 'COVER' thier fleet against enemy fighters drones and missles. Much like a Combat Air Patrol. My reply was that fighter craft overall attack/defense strenght would be calculated based on the fighter orders used. IE the cover order would instruct the fighters to use thier point defense and those fighters best at point defense would do best. bombers for example wouldnt do so well here. I was also told that future battles would include what the fighter craft and drones were doing. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks HOD - that's also detail I've asked for for at least 8 months. In fact that's exactly how I've been expecting those 'descriptors' to work. In effect they allocate a percentage of the total available Missile and Point Defence in various amounts - right up to the Kamikaze options where I'm sure you get extra 'punch', but lose a lot more F&Ds. Whilst knowing these %'s would be great, it's not the big worry today. Today I am vexed by two things... Firstly all those tactics seem meaningless at the FBP level because F&Ds are held at the 'fleet' level. What's the point of selecting Ship Class-based F&D tactics per class, when F&Ds aren't allocated to classes like every other weapon system? Secondly, as F&Ds aren't actually tied to the bays/carriers carrying them, does this mean they are free to come through the WP when the first ship does????????? This last is a very urgent question! Regards Mx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurassier Posted January 10, 2005 Report Share Posted January 10, 2005 Secondly, as F&Ds aren't actually tied to the bays/carriers carrying them, does this mean they are free to come through the WP when the first ship does????????? This last is a very urgent question! I agree, and the answer had better be NO. Fighters and Drones DO NOT have Jump drives and therefore should NOT be allowed to come through a WP until the ship carrying them jumps through and they are launched. That is why F&D should be at ship level and not fleet level. example If I have 10 ships each carrying 50 fighters, I have 500 fighters. Let's say I am assaulting a size 2 WP, I should only be allowed 2 ships and therefore 100 fighters each battle turn. AND the fighters should be tied to the ships that they are loaded on. what if I have different kinds of fighters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted January 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2005 Secondly, as F&Ds aren't actually tied to the bays/carriers carrying them, does this mean they are free to come through the WP when the first ship does????????? This last is a very urgent question! I agree, and the answer had better be NO. Fighters and Drones DO NOT have Jump drives and therefore should NOT be allowed to come through a WP until the ship carrying them jumps through and they are launched. That is why F&D should be at ship level and not fleet level. example If I have 10 ships each carrying 50 fighters, I have 500 fighters. Let's say I am assaulting a size 2 WP, I should only be allowed 2 ships and therefore 100 fighters each battle turn. AND the fighters should be tied to the ships that they are loaded on. what if I have different kinds of fighters? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> K - whilst my first thought was also that the answer should be an emphatic 'NO', I have reconsidered. If the ability to come through the WP without their supporting carriers is the way Pete's designed it (and if you know the example of "The Shiva Option" and think either Gorm/Bug Gunboats (fighters) or SBMHAWKs (drones)); as a method of getting more firepower through a defended WP which might otherwise be very hard - backed perhaps by a large Fire Control (which may be a very good way of getting rid of lots of 'junkers' that are defending the WP)..... Then this might be a fairly reasonable thing to find out. My point is simple - we need to know. I'd go one further - I think the existing Naval Battle report could be condensed greatly, whilst showing the same information. I'd then like to ask that it be extended to show 'round-by-round' progress. That way we'd know what was going on and have real confidence in what we're doing. Mx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurassier Posted January 10, 2005 Report Share Posted January 10, 2005 Well, if Fighters and Drones are allowed to 'fire' through WP's then why shouldn't Sonic, Laser, Gravitonic, etc. weapons also be allowed to fire through WP's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted January 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Well, if Fighters and Drones are allowed to 'fire' through WP's then why shouldn't Sonic, Laser, Gravitonic, etc. weapons also be allowed to fire through WP's? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, because they are a completely different and particular form of weapon system. Once in combat they operate separately from their carriers and are only reloaded (land) at the end of the combat (assuming bays/racks remain). Whilst they are thus a great deal more flexible, they can be countered with high manoeuvrability and, most importanty, Point Defence, which will actually destroy some of them. High proportions of PD may therefore still make WP assaults, indeed any battle involving F&Ds, very expensive in terms of resources used. We just need to know whether F&Ds are considered 'launched' as battle starts in EVERY situation, including WP assaults? Secondly, how we are supposed to use the tactics? Presently F&Ds are only held at the 'fleet' level and perhaps should only have a single 'fleet' tactic each. How are we supposed to use the tactics at the ship-class level when we don't assign F&Ds to the ship(s) class(es) that are actually carrying them? Let alone how we're supposed to cope with mixed F&Ds in fleets...... Mx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Guztov Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 I too would like to know if it would be possible to give differnt orders to the various fightercraft that would be present. I dont think any Admiral worth his bars would send Bombers on a Cover Mission. having no point defense ability they would be nearly useless in that role unless they ram the incoming ordance which would not be the best use of those fightercraft. As far as defenses against F&D manuverability might get you there but it would take up a large portion of the ship in terms of mass which could be used for more weapons/defenses. Fighters/Drone need only those pulse engines to increase manuverability for no additional cost. Just something to think about if you plan on countering fighters/drones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurassier Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Well, because they are a completely different and particular form of weapon system. Once in combat they operate separately from their carriers and are only reloaded (land) at the end of the combat (assuming bays/racks remain). Well of course they are completely different, but unless they are loaded aboard their carrier, how do they get through a WP unless they have a Jump Drive??? Last I checked, a ship couldn't get through a WP without a Jump Drive, so in order to be consistent in the rules of this game, a fighter/drone should also not be allowed to move through a WP unless they are loaded aboard their carrier when they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelnett_of_Kraan Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Heh. Warp-capable missiles. Why are we now having flashbacks of Star Blazers? (aka Battlecruiser Yamato) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin.C Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Well of course they are completely different, but unless they are loaded aboard their carrier, how do they get through a WP unless they have a Jump Drive??? Last I checked, a ship couldn't get through a WP without a Jump Drive, so in order to be consistent in the rules of this game, a fighter/drone should also not be allowed to move through a WP unless they are loaded aboard their carrier when they do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, it might just be that *entering* a warp point requires a jump drive, but *exiting* one does not. In other words, the fighters are launching from within the warp tunnel. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldred Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Is it just me or did the Ur-Lord raise a fairly crucial issue here concerning the operation of fighters and drones in battle (i.e. do they all come through the WP at once and join the battle, regardless of whether the ship they are being carried on has made it through yet?) Clearly something which should be clarified as soon as possible. To date there is no response from the GM to this thread. Whilst I don't expect the GMs to respond to every point made on the boards, I think issues such as this really require a response - after all, whole strategies may be affected! I am not asking for complete details of the way the entire battle sequence is programmed - just a hint or two to point us in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 I'm going out of town this weekend (after I get this turn out, of course!) but will be updating the Space Combat document when I get back. Expect considerable detail concerning fighters, drones, point defenses and general defensive systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGRuss Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 (edited) Just a quick note as Pete is up to his ears in processing an SN turn cycle at the moment... Yes, Fighters and Drones are stored at the fleet level so they will be present in the fight as soon as the attacking force starts to transit (they are not stored by unit so do not depend on specific units coming through). This may be something of an anomaly in realism logic (SN realism that is) as some folks have pointed out on this thread already but we've considered it at length and believe that in the final analysis everything works out. Some points to keep in mind are that fighters/drones are tied into your fire control just like any other offensive weapon system (so you won't see the equivalent of an SN II drone strike regardless) and point defense (CIDS) systems are not (i.e. if you have sufficient CIDS you can smoke every last fighter/drone in the first round then go back to engaging enemy units as they continue to transit). There are strategies to pursue if you are a fighter/drone fan and there are strategies to pursue if you have to defend against them. There are both tactical and strategic considerations to weigh. Mismatches can create overwhelming victories or humiliating defeats (and everything in between) depending on the circumstances and many variables. Our primary goal has always been a system that gives folks options. Offense was the name of the game in SN II - so much so that it became more of a MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) type of game. Defense is not only a possibility in SN:ROTE but the defender has the tactical advantages in the system for the most part (a good thing considering the pace of the game - you don't want to see your empire's defenses crumbled by the first marauder to happen along). We are going to be coming out with a new Naval Combat supplement and we are working to improve both the combat results and FOB readouts (and I'm working on a new Orders Supplement too). I realize that our progress seems glacial at times and I can't argue with that - there are a lot of factors that go into that We continue to plug away though and we're not going anywhere so we'll continue to improve the game as we can. Take care and good gaming! Russ P.S. Looks like Pete got a quick post in while I was composing mine... Edited January 13, 2005 by RTGRuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin.C Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 I'm going out of town this weekend (after I get this turn out, of course!) but will be updating the Space Combat document when I get back. Expect considerable detail concerning fighters, drones, point defenses and general defensive systems <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Where is this "Space Combat document"? Or is it a yet to be released document? Kevin (impatiently awaiting my setup) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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