Game 94

[Rednas]

I hope for your sake that you indeed find yourself next to someone who is a complete walkover, Rednas, as apparently when faced by someone who does put up a fight, you can't beat him even in a 3:1 situation. Poland is already the victor in this game, now you were forced to leave him his capital with all his resources and supplies because you couldn't end the siege and had to force peace on him to stop him from continously bombing your divisions to oblivion. I guess when his bombers found you even in Germany, it was too much for you to stomach, eh? Well, nice try indeed...

 

No worries though, i'm sure you will find another rookie player somewhere in another game. Who knows, if you go 5:1 you may even prevail!!!

Mickey...whas it possible you that did "complain" about how to play the game together with allies and use the rules what the game allows? Hmmmm....well I do not complain just having the fact strait. Yes I am not the best player, but I have the best allies and that makes the difference indeed in this, that you did find out correctly. Ask Spongiebaby about his allies, if he ever had any. And for the rest yawn, yawn.

 

Happy gaming

[Rednas]

Redfarse always spouts but never delivers, he is one of the Monks disciples and keeps hidden away until he is part of a winning team. If he had declared his nation earlier this game would have had a different dynamic as I would have concentrated all my efforts on his distruction, Lowlands, Iceland, GB and his cronies etc would have never seen a Sponge on there battle reports but I am used to his waffle when the Sponge is out. Maybe in 95 he can announce his location before T5 so I can march on his nation. For all Monks faults at least he lets me know where he is most of the time, this guy just rolls up when the Sponge is out, At least I have an interesting game while im in it, i could not imagine hiding behind mommy monks apron for 70+ turns. Its not about the winning, its the taking part a fact a few players over the years have forgot. Adios

Oh Spongiebaby...so sensitive, lost you nerv it seems. I do apologize litte vertibrate if I hurt your feelings.

Okay, maybe I am a coward, not the best player...but still in the game...and the one with allies...you know those players that play on the same side as yours...do you have alles spongiebaby? That is the key of the game, I did try to explain that to you approx. 3 years ago. Well didn't fruit. And as long you do backstabbing pall...that is what you get in the game, the knock out. And I see you still not have a clue what and with whom I am playing.

And btw you did once only once CB me...and destroyed a few factories...I am still recovering from it...

 

and for the rest yawn, yawn.

 

Happy gaming

[Rednas]

 

I hope for your sake that you indeed find yourself next to someone who is a complete walkover, Rednas, as apparently when faced by someone who does put up a fight, you can't beat him even in a 3:1 situation. Poland is already the victor in this game, now you were forced to leave him his capital with all his resources and supplies because you couldn't end the siege and had to force peace on him to stop him from continously bombing your divisions to oblivion. I guess when his bombers found you even in Germany, it was too much for you to stomach, eh? Well, nice try indeed...

 

No worries though, i'm sure you will find another rookie player somewhere in another game. Who knows, if you go 5:1 you may even prevail!!!

 

Yeay, long live Poland. Booooo to Rednas, almost on the same level as Spongie in effectiveness, he just has more allies.

 

Dageraad: the colors in the map are indeed deceiving. With British troops landing in force in Italy, supported by Ireland and Iceland, while Great Britain is supposedly fighting in Scandinavia makes it awfully clear to what extent these parties are working together. And still France is losing the battle for Turin. But you might want to keep Iraq and SA as a separate color. Where else will SR turn to, now that Persia and Turkey are almost gone? All those armies in the southern desert with no place to go....

 

 

Falco, who are you anyway. The dead singer? And yes you do understand the game...almost completely. Yes the difference is that I have allies and mine effectiveness is higher because I am still in the game.

 

and for the rest yawn, yawn,

 

Happy gaming

[Guest Spongebob]

Whats the point in the same allies, no new friends, I may have a bad rep but its out there not hidden - next time your in a game come out of the closet and see who wants to play. If your in 95 say hello unless your dead and I will pop over and pay you a visit. Like I say, its a pitty I never knew who you were early on as I would have done more than bomb your city, I would have marched through Germany (sorry dag) and jumped on Polands back and stomped all over your RedFace. A-OLE

[Mickey]

Funny you should ask that Sander, as it was the very allies you play with that complained about this backstabbing as 'not the way this game should be played' even though Spongy's action was TOTALLY within YOUR stated limit of how low you are apparently willing to stoop: stating you'll do anything the rules allow, using EVERY means available by the rules regardless of ethics.

 

Hmm... could that maybe mean that some ethics ARE required as guidelines, and the rules are NOT the only book to play by?

To be clear, Sander (and i should be, as you refer to a happening in a game where (unless you were Switzerland) unlike me or Peter or Edwin you had no stake in so you can't really know what happened there except from here-say), i disapprove hugely of the misleading actions that Spongy engaged in in that game, but i see one big redeeming thing there: he publicly fessed up what an enormous dork he'd been, explained the presumptions under which he was working and apoligized profoundly and publicly for doing so. It doesn't make his action right, but i believe his apology and his admitting that he was a bloody fool to be sincere. He wasn't ill-meaning, he was just very unwise. How do YOU feel about what you're doing on the forum attacking Spongy the way you do?

Enjoy the game, and make others enjoy theirs. If you're not in this game to make it fun for all your fellow players, if you put winning above the aspect of mutually (and that doesn't mean just with your TA's) enjoying the game, you're in it for the wrong reasons. Even if you're beating the shite out of other players' positions, they are still fellow players with what should be a common goal of enjoying the game. Trying to beat others is core to this game, but trying to beat other players even by engaging in play-methods that ruin their fun, that's another thing. It's not just the fact that you win (or lose) it's also the way you do it

Have fun,

Mickey.

[Rednas]

 

Funny you should ask that Sander, as it was the very allies you play with that complained about this backstabbing as 'not the way this game should be played' even though Spongy's action was TOTALLY within YOUR stated limit of how low you are apparently willing to stoop: stating you'll do anything the rules allow, using EVERY means available by the rules regardless of ethics.

 

Hmm... could that maybe mean that some ethics ARE required as guidelines, and the rules are NOT the only book to play by?

To be clear, Sander (and i should be, as you refer to a happening in a game where (unless you were Switzerland) unlike me or Peter or Edwin you had no stake in so you can't really know what happened there except from here-say), i disapprove hugely of the misleading actions that Spongy engaged in in that game, but i see one big redeeming thing there: he publicly fessed up what an enormous dork he'd been, explained the presumptions under which he was working and apoligized profoundly and publicly for doing so. It doesn't make his action right, but i believe his apology and his admitting that he was a bloody fool to be sincere. He wasn't ill-meaning, he was just very unwise. How do YOU feel about what you're doing on the forum attacking Spongy the way you do?

Enjoy the game, and make others enjoy theirs. If you're not in this game to make it fun for all your fellow players, if you put winning above the aspect of mutually (and that doesn't mean just with your TA's) enjoying the game, you're in it for the wrong reasons. Even if you're beating the shite out of other players' positions, they are still fellow players with what should be a common goal of enjoying the game. Trying to beat others is core to this game, but trying to beat other players even by engaging in play-methods that ruin their fun, that's another thing. It's not just the fact that you win (or lose) it's also the way you do it

Have fun,

Mickey.

 

Mickey,

 

You are absolutely right and I even agree with you.But only to appologize for something doing against any "ethics" (please we have to keep in mind that we are talking here about a game, nothing more and nothing less and not about real life) as you put will not make somebody behaviour and trust as a game player be forgive and forgotten. At least not to me. And correct I was not in this game, but if a good TA explains to me in good manner what did happen than at least I believe him.

And Sponbgebob is always all the time jerking around on the forum. I started this kind of comminication against/with Spongie years ago and he started/continued in the same manner as I do, so for me no harm done. He is attacking everybody and everyone, I only him.

And once more this is a game, this is a forum and to me has nothing to do with real life what and how I things do there. So please no over reaction and to much sensitively here.

Ask Sponge why he has no TA's and why he is kicked out of every game? As I said I am not the best player, but I have the best TA's.

 

I am pretty sure that the Sponge and me did write each other for years that these kind of communication was misunderstood on the forum. And see we were/are right.

 

And that I hide my country, well is part of the game. But I guess everybody knows what I play her, maybe the Sponge doesn't, but is that important? If yes, ask me and I will tell.

 

I enjoy the game and my intentions are not to take the fun from others, if that is the fact, than I guess am not correctly understood.

Poland did put up a good fight and due to certain circumstances we had to alter the plan and the actions a bit. Once more, I am not the best player and my reactions were a bit to slow, I admitt. Also certain private circumstances, I am sorry I do have some once in a while, did not play in my favour every time. But that are excuses. Fact is sometimes I am to cautious, some others would say slow, amde some mistakes. But also my country is small and my resources limited and TA's demanding support here and there on points that are more alarming and urgent. You, Mickey (regarded as a good player) certainly do and can agree with that.

 

Mickey, we will certainly meet on the battlefield and let us wish us both happy gaming and wise decissions. And that I do honestly mean. The game will soon enter a new episode and I hope I stay long eneough in it to enjoy it and put up a good play against (and maybe with) you.

 

So again happy gaming to you all.

 

Greetings Rednas.

[Sven Drake]

Well, thank you, Mickey, I think.

 

It is not as if I am suffering from lack of hostile attention, you know.....

Hey, dag, totally off the subject here: what kind of plane is your avatar? Real, or fantasy?

[dageraad]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_G.I

 

One of the few modern planes in the dutch airforce in may 1940.

[Viking pilot]

 

 

New map:

 

 

- Landings on the Italian coast are not very successfull. Yet. Costly battles in the Tyrrenian sea,

- xBerlin has fallen. No raging luniatics in a bunker over there. Bavaria is far nicer.

- Lowlands advancing to the north, taking his part of the former spongistani empire, while Iceland takes Jutland.

- I have tweaked the coloring of the Middle east a bit, as requested.

- The whole of Canada is conquered. The whole of Canada? No, probably there are still some islands that are not worth taking. Was Canada ever played this game? Where will the US of A go next?

Technically, the landings worked just fine -- it was the response that rendered the 'invasion' unsuccessful (but we get your point!) Had Italy not delayed I think things would have been much different because we would have had a second turn to consolidate, attack and reinforce, but you never know how it will go so that's why we play the game...

 

Yeah, we got suckered into this "lets try and make our opponent's turn meaningless" trick before, and it cost Edwin (Rumania) everything as we didn't expect this from that opponent. We won't be fooled into putting the 'honorable' label on someone again in Vic94 and delay as long as needed until we see what all relevant opponents of a player did...

 

I really don't understand why you consider it 'dishonorable' to change the date on which you run for tactical advantage. I am on my sixth game of Victory and have had opponents regularly do this and we have done it back if the situation was such that it might be an advantage. No one has ever commented on it and neither have I or any of my various allies/TAs. Is there some kind of consensus out there I don't know about that says you should continue to run on the same day you always have throughout the game? Or is it only in order to get intelligence that you are allowed to delay?

 

I always thought the trick of ceding territory to a TA in order to prevent an attack on you was a really cheesy rules mechanism, but since it exists I recognize that it might be used and try to remember that an opponent could do it and take whatever steps are available (having a sim tc done by an ally before I run for example) to counter that possible tactic. I try to do the same when considering run dates and getting the intel I need. Just seems like part of the game.

 

I would be happy to get feedback on how this is perceived as it has never come up before that I can recall.

[Mickey]

Jeff, sadly there is no consensus about allowing all players to play their game to the best of their ability. That doesn't change the fact that a shifter to blind is robbing a fellow player of his/her opportunity to play the game in the best way possible. So far, in every game of Victory, i had the pleasure of playing against opponents who like me wanted the game to be a battle of strategy, tactics and a bit of luck, not a game of 'i have more fexibility in my playing schedule than you so i can make you fight blindfolded'. My opponents actually became my fellow players with whom i swapped (and swap) battle reports so we both can play a turn every 14 days instead of getting 3 turns out of every 4 tech periods because we keep dancing around each other's due date, who were happy they had a sparring partners when all TA's had left them (yes, i even and purposefully give my BR's to an opponent who has no active TA's so the game is a fair match) and who generally treat this as a game where the main goal is for all to have an exciting and fun time and winning is subordinate to that.

 

Then there's those who want to win, win, win, the playability for opponents be damned, information on which a good turn can be based even actively removed or made as unlikely as possible. Yes, that is a very effective strategy. It's just not a strategy (or rather: a playing method) which tries to keep the playability for all players in regard, but instead tries to make one side defeat players of the other side through no fault or weakness of their own, other than for instance not being able to adjust schedules as easily due to RL circumstances... bringing RL restrictions in play as a factor to influence the outcome of the game. One of my opponents is in prison and always gets his turns with several days delay. How easy it would be for me to make sure he plays blind. Instead, i make sure he gets the short version of the intel right away through Corrlinks so he can plan his turn even if the details i sent to his family reach him after several days. THAT is, for me, playing a game together and attempting to practice good sportsmanship. I can tell you that that makes for mch more comraderie among players.

 

After all, what value does it have if you win by denying your opponent the ability to play? Isn't that just like winning over the computer? If you can't win a straight battle, you should try and improve your game, not rig it. That's my idea on a game, i realise i'm in a minority on this point. So far, luckily i had the pleasure of playing with, and against, fellow players like Mark, Alan and Pat, who think likewise and put an exciting fight over an easy or undeserved win. It is only in Vic94 that i found it can also be very different.

 

So, no, no consensus... just my feelings on why one should be playing a game.

 

 

Enjoy the game,

Mickey.

[Mickey]

To illustrate, in Vic91 Mark and i are fighting a heated battle with Paul and Brian over the Iberian pensinsula. This was a mail exchange today between Mark and Brian:

 

 

 

From: Mark
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 11:20:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Vic91
To: Briab, Paul
CC: Mickey

Doh, my bad, here you go!

 

In a message dated 10/14/2013 7:27:28 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,Brian writes:

Hey Paul,

Did I miss Poland's battle reports? I have not gone because I have been waiting for them.

Brian

On Oct 14, 2013, at 6:58 AM,Paul wrote:

> Hey Brian,

>

> Did you run?

> I'm scheduled to run, do you want me to delay?

>

> Paul.

>

 

When some opponents had to bail out due to very sad personal circumstances, we even found new people to fill some of the countries of our opponents. They are now beating the shit out of us so we may well lose the game on victory points because of that, but it's challenging to the end. Quite a different tune from how things go in Vic94, where we are already outnumbered 13:5 with all accompanying challenges of having intel to play even without opponents actively trying to blind us.

[dageraad]

I agree with Mickey about this – mostly.

There are a lot of tricks possible in this game. Whether they are cheesy, unhonorable or mean is in the eye of the beholder and depends on the circumstances. And I dare say, on the opponent. They are –within the game- legitimate tactics. I am no saint, and neither is Mickey. But I get more satisfaction from fighting a good fight, preferably one on one, than from walking over everyone. And there are certain things that I will never do in a game like this.

Not everyone can make a turn on each day of the week, not everyone has a fixed group of TA’s that he can depend on, not everyone is a good sport and not everyone can afford 120 orders on a country that doesn’t even have any units left. I know players that were demolished by the CL trick, immediately dropped their position and are forever lost as a player.

Tricks play to big a role in the game, pushing the wargaming aspect to the sidelines. They should be fixed, for they distract from what is otherwise a great game and keep new players away. And if we want this hobby to survive to game 100 and beyond they have to be fixed.

[Mickey]

 

Tricks play to big a role in the game, pushing the wargaming aspect to the sidelines. They should be fixed, for they distract from what is otherwise a great game and keep new players away. And if we want this hobby to survive to game 100 and beyond they have to be fixed.

And given that some 'tricks' cannot be 'fixed', it's up to the players how to deal with them. We cannot expect Russ to 'fix' the blinding issue or the CL-'feature' or the 'you can fly FC for your TA if you set the situation up right' issue as they are either outside the game mechanics or too deep in there for Russ to change them. All we can do is work with/around them in a way that takes as little away from players' gaming fun.

 

Of course one can have the "i use everything not blocked by the mechanics" PoV and say screw this and screw my opponent. Nothing in the written rules says you can't. But for me, finding out that 'my inmate opponent' in Vic92 brought two (in-)mates to the game in Vic95 was a far greater victory than i could have ever achieved by easily beating him in game 92 had he been fighting blind because i didn't send him BR's. Or worse, had him quit in reaction to me actively taking advantage of his delay in communication and manouver my rundate to blind him even when he did have active TA's, so he couldn't really put down any meaningful orders.

Game on.

Mickey.

 

P.S. if you see multiple posts by me through e-mail notification, it's because this site is actign weirdly for me lately when i'm replying to posts or editing replies. Sorry for whatever psam you may experience.

[Mickey]

Oh, and Sander: of course you don't have to apologise for not being the most aggressive and assertive player. It is a game after all, which we all enter with varying degrees of experience, skill and with varying attitudes towards the game. My hard reaction was focussed on what i perceived to be a way too personalised attack on Paul (Spongy) which i felt crossed the boundaries of what the Propaganda Forum is for. I know Spongy does approximately the same, but he does it to all so we know it's not personal, his entire mind is just a freak of nature. You seemed to be singling him out for a very personal attack. If you two are in mutual agreement that this is good fun on the forums, please don't let me stop you (but do try to make it clear it is in jest, some autists like me are not that good at distinguishing between jest and meant).

 

For me, the game all boils down to what the ladies say:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3sD0i8VYH4

[Guest Spongebob]

Oi Mouse whats wrong with my mind you small insignificant rodent, is that clear enought, are we on the same page. Everyone should know by now I never make any intended personal attacks on anyone, hey I cant even attack anyone on the battlefield. I do tend to fly close to the Sun sometime and may have actually got burnt once or twice but nothing is ever intentional.

 

You should see some of the stuff i type then just before I hit the post button i delete on the grounds of good taste.

 

I have had a hate hate relationship with many players over the years, some I would never ally with, some never with me but the ones who get to know me as I think you have Mouse know the true meaning of Sponge.

 

Now bow down and swear fealty to the House of Sponge, and while your at it go and get my country back