Information disclosure

[Laserwolf]

THIS is gonna be good... {gets out popcorn}...

[EternusIV]

Whoa new format for the boards

 

Pete,

 

Respectfully, I'm not saying that the screen defense is unbeatable in every instance. I probably rambled past the point I think I'm making.... Ton for ton, the 'formula' I have laid out is quite efficient at this phase of the game. Further, the 'formula' potentially removes an entertaining option available to impatient players: ie the big massive, NTWD-equipped behemoth running around and raising hell!

 

This is my main point:

 

The current fire control system renders the NTWD-equipped Warfleet useless for large scale assaults against players who prepare their defenses with massive amounts of screen ships.

 

Again, the 1,000 ton screen ship strategy CAN be defeated. In my response to Ur-Lord Tedric, the paper tiger I was referring to implied the use of NTWDs. I apologize if I wan't clear on that. I presumed your quoted reference to my main point had us on the same page.

 

Maybe we agree after all?

 

Do you agree that a NTWD-equipped fleet with the parameters I proposed would be at a tremendous disadvantage, ton-for-ton, if making the assault from several systems away in one turn?

 

Again, I'm offering a very specific challenge.

 

-- Strike the system from more than one system out in the same turn(implying the use of NTWDs)

 

OR

 

-- Strike the system from next door without the use of screens

 

 

 

If either cannot be done without a tremendous amount of effort (read: resources!), then we have an interesting revelation, do we not?

 

As I understand it, the hypothetical was to be arranged in a way that my defenses are set in stone. Don't worry, I won't add any more ships What would a player have to bring in to take those defenses out if attacking more than one jump away in the same turn? I'm giving you unlimited time...bring in a 20 trillion ton ship, I don't care

 

1) If you are attacking from more than one system out, it will be a MASSIVE ship (or few) with NTWDs....

 

2) If you are attacking from one system out, please design the attacking force without screen ships of your own.

 

In the end: Either approach will require an investment in tonnage FAR in excess of what the defender had to invest. Right?

 

I hope I'm wrong! If I am, then I think this exercise might clarify any misunderstanding I might have and hopefully clarify things for others, too

 

Once we have specific ratings for components, we can also figure out the best situation in which to divide our firepower in such instances.

 

Until then - I'm presuming that the most resource-effective way to defeat a screen defense is to attack with a screen assault of your own.

 

But if I'm wrong, by all means correct me. After all, you are the one who knows all the ratings and nuances to space combat, not me.

 

Lastly - how can we possibly evalute the effectiveness of a NTWD-equipped fleet - whose very function is to engage in combat several systems away - without imposing the condition to assault from more than one system out? Its not a 'time limit' - its a requirement for this particular hypothetical.

 

If you want the attacking fleet to warp to the next system over and attack the following turn, that is fine....but just don't have little screenies of your own waiting to merge with the assault fleet (because that would imply that you used the creeping malaise of screenies over a series of fuel-consuming, order-intensive turns to get to the front in the first place )

[Lostworlds]

I do not believe the screen strategy will work against certain specially designed fleets. Fast fleets can cause enormous damage when they are appropriately equipped to handle your fleet designs. Every strategy has a weakness and yours has a problem with fire control. Also, not one of your screen ships will stand up to a partial hit from a Mk V spitwad Chucker. Your ship has no shields. A direct hit from my Mk V Spitwad Chucker will pulverize that ship when I finish off those screen ships. Oh yeah, my warship I have is near 8,000,000 tons. I think I have a way of reducing your fighters to debris in one turn. I do not think my warship is big. Decisions, decisions do I disassemble the warship and add another one and have million armor and more weapons this turn. My fleet has 1,000,000 tons of shields.

Yawns and thinks about bed.

Lostworlds

1290

Rich

[EternusIV]

Hey - I'm well aware of just how lame the defensive fleet is.....thats part of my point.

 

At the end of the hypothetical I want to compare the resources it took to build the defensive fleet v the resources it would take a non-screened or NTWD-based fleet to eliminate the defenses.

 

 

The attacker is going to need a lot of fire control (read: lots more resources invested than my defense fleet)....if not, my lame Orbital will have plenty of time to slowly chew on the screenless attacking ship(s).

 

 

EDIT: BTW - I dont want anybody to think I'm going to leave the game over this issue or anything. I think I speak for a few who see a legitimate issue about fire control (heck, just read this thread again ) I'm happy that Pete is taking the time to explain things and 'put htings to bed' RTG will alwys get my money....I just hope that others remain as patient as many of us have as we figure things out.

[RTGPete]

Again, I'm offering a very specific challenge.

 

-- Strike the system from more than one system out in the same turn(implying the use of NTWDs)

 

OR

 

-- Strike the system from next door without the use of screens

 

In the end: Either approach will require an investment in tonnage FAR in excess of what the defender had to invest.  Right?

 

Well, I suppose if you make the rules of the challenge specific enough, it's impossible to overcome But this ceases to be an exercise when you're actually building those defenses, and they are all that stands between the hated Bugs and the life of your empire. I might add that you'd better have a heck of a lot more than a couple of million tons of defenses to stop the Bugs.

 

Here's where we disagree: I can defeat a swarm defense with tonnage far less than it took to build the swarm--not far in excess. You can counter, and I can counter that, which is the whole point.

 

The key is avoiding very specific rules for how all attacks must take place I would not, in fact, make one big attack. That would be suicide. If you put 1000 1,000-ton ships at your warp point, and I didn't want to devote any real tonnage to making my main attack fleet fire-control capable, I'd have to clear those 1000 ships before I sent in the main attack. This presumes that I simply would not or could not attack through any other line of advance, and was required by mystical Bug forces to attack in a head-on, wave assault fashion. Stupid Bugs, will they ever learn?

 

Easy enough - I'd just build a 100,000 ton warship, the Mosquito, and give it enough computers to give it a fire control of 50 (with the 25k bridge gear you gave me, that would be only 30,000 tons of ship for bridge). Give it some fuel tankage, one engine, one cheap jump drive, and the rest weapons - say, 60,000 tons of 4th gen weapons. Put my ship in slot 2 and 50 Ant class screens in slot 1. I use the Siege Beam Lasers you gave me, so I lose a little firepower but not much. Definitely enough to kill several dozen of your screens every combat round. If not enough for 50, then I could drop the fleet fire control rating and add more weapons to balance it all out.

 

I could send some hapless Pathfinder in (the one that found you to begin with?) to obtain all of the data I need. You might change your fleet, but that's a strategic consideration, and beyond this scope. It's all about risk, reward anyway.

 

My screens have a warp bubble of 1, so it all comes down to firepower exchange. Even if the warp point is only 15 wide I'm in great shape. I kill 30 of your screens every time I fire (so I would have designed my fleet to be fire control 30 instead of 50 - more weapons to fill that tonnage works fine for me). You kill one, almost certainly one of my screens. At that rate it only takes me 5 shots to emerge with an equal tonnage exchange.

 

So I built a slow fleet. Well, the life of my mortal enemy is on the line. I can afford to move them up slowly, or build a forward base and construct them on the spot. It's only 150,000 tons of finished products anyway, all of which could be built at home, carried up with a small freighter and rebuilt into the clearing force. Whatever works out best given the geography of the area.

 

If I manage to kill only 500 of your screens with the clearing attack, I'd have won by a huge margin. That would only be 17 "shots" at 30 a pop. Are you going to target my one ship hidden among my 50 screens before 17 combat engagement shots go by? Maybe. Maybe not. The odds are with me....because I only need to shoot 5 times, not 17, to succeed in the tonnage exchange. I'll almost certainly survive more than 5.

 

If your 1000 ships die, your warship will definitely die when my real fleet, a NTWD-capable force, shows up. I still have a lot of tonnage left, and you have just your unscreened carrier. If this is your home system defense, you just lost your empire.

 

The defenses can be scaled up and the attack wouldn't change. If I had to build several of my vanguard screen-killer fleets, and wave them in, then that's what I would consider doing. Your screens die....you die.

 

Of course, you can stop me. Attack my fleet before it gets there - it's easy to kill at only 150,000 tons. Or surprise me by building up your own fire control. Add some admirals - they're worth fire control right there. This would require me to suffer an unfavorable exchange rate (which I might consider, since it's the life of your empire on the line, not mine Or I would go around and attack through a different warp point. You might pull back to your homeworld. Then I hit your colony worlds and cut off your mining colonies (bombing or taking them). Nice war we have going, great fun

 

Anyway, the whole idea is to show that there are counters to each of the various fire-control vs screening ship strategies. I might attack through another warp point. You might attack me before I get there. Other empires might intervene and foul everything up. Nice and messy, just the way war should be. No set strategies that always win out no matter what the other guy does.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Oh no!

 

The Oracle's given away all our secrets......

 

Now we'll have to start re-planning our defenses all over again.......

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

 

(Now looking for new material to present to the War College)

[EternusIV]

Pete-

 

Thanks for your response.

 

It gave me a lot to ponder and confirmed a few key points.

 

Any chance you could elaborate on a specific design that would take out the defenses in one round? It certainly is not 'impossible'....( I designed a lame defense on purpose so that we might see a resource-to-resource comparison of what it takes in that scenario)

 

If screen ships are valuable for slowing my enemy down and forcing them to send in little suicide Mosquitos to wipe me out over a series of turns, I see no reason not to use them for home system defenses.

 

I can defeat a swarm defense with tonnage far less than it took to build the swarm--

 

Duh. What was a saying? Sorry. I really meant "resource-to-resource".......You may come in with less tons....but did you use less resources to build those tons?

 

It still seems the screen defender uses a very resource-effective method to stave off mega assault ships.

 

Hence - the NTWD-equipped Behemoth war fleet is relegated to waiting around for little suicide ships to go in and rid the screens before warping in to take out the real threats....I suppose this is realistic to give the defender the advantage in such instances.

 

The game is full of matchups: and the screen defense chalks up good odds against the travelling NTWD-fleets-of-death!

 

You gave us good ideas on how to counter those screen fleets out in the open and I thank you for that (sorry ULT if the Oracle echoed your ideas! )

 

I don't think we really disagree...unless you can prove that it takes less resources to wipe out the screened defender in one round. Unless my understanding of the economy is soundly flawed....it doesn't.

 

Its good to be the defender

 

Next hypothetical challenge.....take out an empire that does nothing but build screen ships and Orbitals to defend its home system. Zero SRPs for the Defender, but wise tech tree usage with investment in fire control, armors, shields and long range/rangepenaltyfree weapons.

 

My guess: mathematically, the attacker would need more than one empire's devoted efforts to pull it off....or a single empire with far superior technology than the defender.

 

Luckily - I don't think people are boring enough to pay to play a game where they do nothing but turtle up.....but I can't see how they would ever lose!

 

Cliff Notes version of my ramblings:

 

1) Eliminating an intelligent defender will be quite an accomplishment in this game...so take out those undefended low-AI dropped positions while you still can!

 

2) Want to dramatically increase your chances of staying in the game forever? Build nothing but screen ships and orbitals each and every turn.

 

3) The design is more balanced than I thought....the extreme scenario I imagined has indeed been 'put to bed' in my mind but I'm still convinced its more efficient to be the defender...and that screened defenders are a pain in the @!#!&*!

 

4) Espionage will be key! Its crucial to know what the other empire has waiting for you........

 

5) SNROTE is still one of the most challenging games I've played in my whole life

[RTGPete]

Any chance you could elaborate on a specific design that would take out the defenses in one round?  It certainly is not 'impossible'....( I designed a lame defense on purpose so that we might see a resource-to-resource comparison of what it takes in that scenario)

 

Hmm....through a warp point, against a potentially endless number of defending ships, I'm not so sure you could do it in one shot. Screens stretch a battle out, while fire control shortens it. The attacker would need infinite fire control to clear out a potentially endless number of defending screens.

 

Duh.  What was a saying?    Sorry.  I really meant "resource-to-resource".......You may come in with less tons....but did you use less resources to build those tons?

 

Just off the top of my head, I'd say that the 150,000 attack fleet used fewer resources than the defenders it cleared out. It would take a spreadsheet and careful analysis to determine exact resource losses. However, even if I had to suffer an unfavorable exchange rate on the clearing force(s) as the attacker....this would be more than made up when the unscreened defenders got clocked in the followup battle Also, when the defender falls in a homeworld defense, he loses everything. The attacker can eventually rebuild even if he suffered unfavorably. The defender....is done. In some cases I'd say that a meatgrinder of an attack might well be a wise choice. In the case of a superbly-defended warp point, though, a meatgrinder approach could be disastrous.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

You gave us good ideas on how to counter those screen fleets out in the open and I thank you for that (sorry ULT if the Oracle echoed your ideas!    )

 

Eternus Old Bean - it's no problem at all.

 

We know it seems we've found out about the Battle System a bit late in the day and perhaps a lot of it is just a matter of perception, but this part of the design (rather a major part though) does seem to be rather well thought out.

 

What we have is a balanced system which means empires will have not made any explicitly wrong choices depending on the route they have chosen. What they might need to do is learn exactly how to use those choices.

 

The DepLoc screening effect and Fleet combat does appear to be as advertised and the actual results seem to be quite reasonable - at a strategic level - which is the main effect.

 

We shall just continue to push for final tweaks to the Battle Report/FOB so that the results of detailed ship design can, however, be seen. Mainly now Fighters & Drones and the meanings of Defensive systems. We also need to see explicit Range information, probably in the ANZ descriptions.

 

What we truly have is a game that pits players against each other and definitely doesn't have one solution.

 

To every Offense there is a Defense - and vice versa.

 

A defender does have the advantage, which is a reflection of many realities, but the best defender won't be attacking anybody - so there's the choice.....

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

[Sakarissa]

Well, a certainly interesting dialogue about assaulting a warp point from RTG. One flaw in his points. He will have a lot of screen ships to protect his monster FC ship. However, how big is the warp point? How many of the fleet will actually make it per battle pulse? How many will die before the battleship shows up? If the defender's 1,000 defense screen even has 1 weapon in the design, the screen will take a few hits before the real ship shows up. And, the other point that was missed in this tactics discussion is rather amusing. Well, the defender just spent a significant amount of resources and IC to put this monster screen at ONE of his warp points. What about sending the attack fleet through one of the other warp points. You know, one of the undefended ones? Defending a warp point is better done with a quality ship (ie: lots of fire power and lots of FC). That way, when the fleet materializes piecemeal, you can destroy it in detail as it comes through the warp point. Having a smaller, quality screen will help out against the enemy sending in one humongous ship. The screen I would use would have a small amount of weapons, lots of armor, force shields, and CIDS as well as some high-quality bridge items to prevent the screen from bringing down the FC of the defense station floating behind it. And the best way to penetrate a home system is to send in attack fleets through all the incoming warp points that you find. He can't have all them defended well enough to prevent all of them.......

 

Sakarissa

[Palladium Regency]

I think there is an even bigger flawer in the hypothetical as it assumes that the defender doesn't care about fire control.

[EternusIV]

I think there is an even bigger flawer in the hypothetical as it assumes that the defender doesn't care about fire control.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Intended.

 

The hypothetical was not to test reality. PEte wanted to put 'extremes to bed' so I designed an extreme hypothetical....one that would isolate the effect of screen vessels against a single-turn warp assault.

 

I wanted to test the power of screens.....specifically, to show that SCREENS=FC. I went out of my way to demonstrate that the fleet had zero bridge rating in order to properly test the effect sheer screen numbers would have on the assault. Believe me, I do care about fire control....I just bought myself (1,001/attackers FC) worth of FC without using a single computer! I did not set out to build the very best screen defense....in fact I wanted to build the most basic of screen defenses.

 

Look - am I alone, here? Does anybody else see this?

 

To address Sakarissa: I didn't want to add weapons to the screen ship for the hypothetical.

 

Again -- the whole point was to show the raw brute advantage of screen ships in defending against a single turn assault.

 

Pete confirmed that a large NTWD-all-in-one-turn-strike force will get hosed (ie nearly suicidal) trying to penetrate a low-FC, weaponless screen defense with a crappy orbital in the back row. Thats what I hoped to demonstrate all along.

 

Of course we could improve that screen defense I laid out....in fact, the suggested improvements improve the case for employing the screen defense strategy.

[hobknob]

To defeat the defending force simply build a 2M ton ship with 25% CIDS, 20 fighter bays loaded with mutipurpose fighters and about 20 AP in movement. Add to that 20% armor and 20% shields and you should do pretty well.

 

The high AP and high% of CIDS should take care of the fighters and that is the only defensive fire threat. The defender goes down and we never know how many days the combat took.

 

[President Guztov]

What I would really like to know is if FC affects the effectiveness of CIDS.

[Palladium Regency]

Intended.

 

The hypothetical was not to test reality.  PEte wanted to put 'extremes to bed' so I designed an extreme hypothetical....one that would isolate the effect of screen vessels against a single-turn warp assault.

 

I wanted to test the power of screens.....specifically, to show that SCREENS=FC.   I went out of my way to demonstrate that the fleet had zero bridge rating in order to properly test the effect sheer screen numbers would have on the assault.  Believe me, I do care about fire control....I just bought myself (1,001/attackers FC) worth of FC without using a single computer!     I did not set out to build the very best screen defense....in fact I wanted to build the most basic of screen defenses.

 

My response was intended to draw attention to that exact fact. That it was the weakest defense you could put up with screens and its ramifications. Given the cost of building electronics, I would be surprised if the attack force postulated by Pete would be more efficient. In essence, I don't believe a determined defender can be defeated unless the attacker has a massive resource/technology advantage, even then the real world order cost is going to be disproportionally higher for the attacker.

 

Look - am I alone, here?  Does anybody else see this?

 

You aren't alone. Perhaps there is some magic technology that will nullify it, I don't know. I really don't like that a superior force could be advancing and a defender manages to move 10,000 chaff ships into its way and all of a sudden your entire fleet vaporize becauses it continually targets and vaporizes gnats while one or two battleships blast away behind them. The all or nothing of a space battle is brutal in such a situation, if the superior fleet could disengage it might be a different story. Probing the turn before you attack means it is a giant gamble that the force mix hasn't changed. Conditional orders that allowed a probing attack on the same turn would significantly reduce the risk, but a tiny chance would still be there that the defender could move such a force there between the probe and the attack.

 

I don't find it elegant at all. I just have to work with it at this point.