Information disclosure

[EternusIV]

Fair points.

 

Quite a different analysis if the Romans used a bunch of screening ships. Or you for that matter.

 

You can effectively raise your bridge rating with screening vessels.....and buy yourself lots of free rounds of defense against a behemoth ship like yours if defending screen vessels are in place.

[Krelnett_of_Kraan]

Actually, badly-designed screening vessels can lower your bridge rating, on a fleet-wide basis.

[Locklyn]

BUMP

 

/Locklyn

[EternusIV]

Actually, badly-designed screening vessels can lower your bridge rating, on a fleet-wide basis.

 

Yes...but what are you trying to accomplish?

 

If you have your uber warships in the back row with a FC of 1 (no fire control at all) and 10,000 1k ton screen vessels in front of it, you just bought yourself (10,000/(opponenets fire control)) worth of fire control without developing Mk II computers.

 

The calculus is: 1) build enough computers to increase your fire control, or 2) build junk ships to increase your fire control

 

Massive warships require LOTS of electronic components to achieve a decent FC rating at this stage of our technology (even if we have computers that give 64,000 FC ratings)

 

Building lots of junkers requires shipyard slips, filler and 1 engine/jump drive each (IF you want to move them around)

 

Turtle positions can just crank out 1,000 junk ships a turn using nothing but cheap armor.......imagine trying to take that player down if he/she has a damage dealer in the back row with long range weapons.

 

 

 

Right now - the close battles resolve - not in favor of the fleet with the better designed ship/weapon matchup - but to the one with more screen vessels coupled with 'back-row' fleet deployment (the only challenging concept is to put your damage dealers in the BACK - with long range or range-independent weapons)

 

 

The current fire contol system renders the NTWD-equipped Warfllet useless for large scale assaults against players who prepare their defenses with massive amounts of screen ships.

 

Was this intended?

 

A HUGE vessel with NTWD and INSANE firepower will still have to eat through X rounds of gnats before hammering the enemy damage dealers in the back. In all that time, the enemy has X amount of free shots at the incoming ship.

 

In all honesty -- I think the fire control situation is in dire straits. It puts us right back to where we started...slugging through space one warp at a time -- this time, with gobs of screen ships (+orders, orders, orders, shipyard slips....)

 

The NTWD is handy for exploring warp points quickly....but I dont see future war fleets (ones that want to survive anyway ) running around with 10 APs (unless they want to get slaughtered by heavily-screen-shipped fleets)

 

What makes things worse....a ship with inferior technology can hide behind these screens and lay waste to the un-screened high tech ship.

 

The only way to truly matchup your design/technology with the other guy is to: 1) have a fight where neither side has screen vessels; 2) have the same amount of screen vessels as the other guy (ok, factor in the measly FC ratings....)

 

Unless fire control goes up DRASTICALLY (and we all know it will take dedicated research to do get decent-sized FC ratings for our computers) we have:

 

"Screen Wars"

 

Personally, I would have designed the game where we:

 

1) Either designate what our fleets want to target; or

2) Target larger ships first (event of a tie uses deployment rules);

3) Increase the odds to not attach to a ship of 200,000 tons or less.

 

I'll stop my moaning.

 

I still like SNROTE and am fascinated with 99% of this game. But I'm a bit bummed about how fire control works in this game.....the main reason, again?

 

High AP fleets with NTWD technology simply cannot win against a heavily junk-screened fleet (or against a player with an IQ > 50 who will utilize screen vessels on the defense)

 

Advantage: Defense* (ie drag out the game......)

 

once again.

 

 

* Or the empire with higher FC and Armor than we've seen thus far. By my estimates, this might take another year or two....three or four for those with no SRPs. Which creates a strong case for trade once again

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Eternus old chum......

 

We understand, but we just don't agree.

 

We find the entire combat system, now that we finally understand at least part of it, to be elegantly simple, if not inspired - with many many ramifications.

 

Yes, the defender who has spent many real $'s over a long time does have a chance to survive for at least a reasonable while. Having done the same, our esteemed leader is pretty content with that.....

 

However, unless someone does indeed put TWDs on their ships, then they will be just a slowly creeping malaise and affect very few of us, or be someone crying out for a peaceful neighbour and very desirous of trade.

 

Look at your SF literature - the underdog nearly always wins. The horde (cf 'Bugs') is finally stopped by the massed defences with absolute heaps of Mines......

 

So, go to it!

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

[Kurassier]

I still think FC should be based per each ship with a modifier for command type ships.

[EternusIV]

ULT-

 

Good comments Especially the reference to one of my favorite Sci-Fi series of all time

 

However, unless someone does indeed put TWDs on their ships, then they will be just a slowly creeping malaise and affect very few of us, or be someone crying out for a peaceful neighbour and very desirous of trade.

 

NTWDs still have their uses...don't get me wrong....how else could I start planning long trade routes with my neighbors?

 

However, the NTWD warfleet will have a helluva time out there against junk screen fleets.

 

You bring up a good point: how many of us are going to invest a bunch of effort into developing a truckload of screen vessels?

 

I think core positions will continue to tinker with various ship designs. Its something I love about being in the beginning part of the game....we all started blind and hence, very few us are the 'formula' (unless we guessed lucky)

 

The rest of the universe (re-rollers specifically) is a different story. I think anyone who wants to 'win' (the early phase of the game) will use the 'formula': ie many screen vessels up front with long range weapons/fighters/drones in back.

 

Which is worse?...using a slowly creeping malaise.....or building an uber 10,000,000 ton paper tiger only to be sent off to the slaughter we call "fire control?"

 

I also agree with the PR personnel from McBovines. Ship specific fire control would be cool. It kind of sucks knowing about fleet-wide fire control two years into the game but - the combat sytem, is as you say, elegant and I remain optimistic that the product will only get better as we hammer out the details.

 

I don't mind not having updated rules so much as an incomplete understanding of BASIC combat nuances.

 

/em steps off mini-soap-box and plants a few more trillion seeds

[RTGPete]

The current fire contol system renders the NTWD-equipped Warfllet useless for large scale assaults against players who prepare their defenses with massive amounts of screen ships.

I humbly disagree. Tell you what: you get to be the defender, who apparently cannot be defeated. Put up your defense fleet, and I have to attack it. Post here what you've got, which would have been easily probed in game by an attacker. Just tell me what tech level we get to have for computers and weapons. Let's put these extreme examples to bed

[Clan Elder 'Keen]

The firecontrol system really is that not bad. The trouble is just that many people were not prepared once the details started eeking out. Once you realize you can get a 13 firecontrol ship with investing about 8% of your tonnage...

http://rollingthundergames.ipbhost.com/ind...p?showtopic=947

...with an item purchasable with SRPs (Mk IV Computer), the choice is then really up to the player to prioritize. And up till recently other systems such as engines, weapons, Jump Survey sensors and the like were universally more attractive than firecontrol.

[Clan Elder 'Keen]

Edit: Eternus has a senario below I see!

Edited December 13, 2004 by Clan Elder 'Keen

[EternusIV]

Cool, Pete

 

Hey if we can put these assumptions to bed, fine by me!

 

Hypothetical Warp Point Defense

 

At a warp point I have stationed 1,000 of the following design deployed right up front:

 

Screenie (900 Cordellium Composite - 1 Mk I Nuclear Engine)

 

Rear Deployment contains the following:

 

1 Orbital Defense ships of the following design:

 

1,925,000 Tons

 

(*50 Fighter Bays, 500,000 Cordellium, 250 Mk II Long Lance Torpedos, 500 Heavy Beam Lasers)

 

*Attack Fighters

 

Total Fleet Tonnage is 2,925,000

Bridge Rating: 0

 

Fire Control: 1

 

This fleet takes about 3 turns to build (including the tow ship that pulls the orbital to the warp point)

 

You get Fire Control Devices of up to 25,000. Give yourself Mk I Antimatter Engines. Give yourself 4th-5th Gen Weapons. Nothing higher than Siege Beam Laser.

 

The only cavaet: you have to be making the assualt from at least 3 systems away....in one turn.

 

Come and get me, Oracle!

[Kurassier]

Come and get me, Oracle! 

 

OH look, your star just went Supernova and wiped out your entire fleet! Nice Genesis Torpedoe Oracle. OH, did I say tooo much!!!!

 

 

(fired from a cloaked TWD ship perhaps?!?!?!?)

[Pandaemonium]

As long as it's hypothetical, why not remove the Engines and have the Screenies be Orbital as well, tripling their armor too?

 

Huh?!? Where did the time limit come from? I'm reminded of the old joke about military training: What would you do if a tank came over that hill? I'd hit it with a bazooka shell. And just where did you get that bazooka? The same place you got the tank! Can he have a colony with a humongous Shipyard/Slip capacity in the next system and make the attack from twelve systems away in three turns instead?

[EternusIV]

:lol:

 

Good sayings

 

Its not a time limit per se....I'm imposing a condition to show that strike fleets relying on NTWD/High APs are at a tremendous disadvantage without screens (unless you put NTWDs on all the attacking screen vessels )

 

 

I'm wondering just how massive that fleet will have to be to survive the warp point defense with screen vessels.....by my calculations.....5-6 million tons.

[RTGPete]

The only cavaet:  you have to be making the assualt from at least 3 systems away....in one turn.

 

Sorry, I can't agree to that. You set up your defense, use as many turns of production as you like. Doesn't have to be 3 turns. Make it 20 for all that I care.

 

My main strike force might be NTWD to get it there fast, but arbitrary time limits when you get to set up your defense as you please? Naaah. You can't lose anyway, right?

 

This is a battle for the future of your race, and you're banking everything you have on your "I can't lose with 1000 screens" strategy, as you are absolutely certain that it cannot be defeated. Can't do this halfway - it either works or it doesn't