woolfe99 Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Plus remember to, it was WKE whom brought this up, and if he were doing something mean/nasty/dark...he would have said nothing at all...AND NO ONE would have ever known. This little detail seems to be total forgotten , WKE is the one still seeking contact with this player position. I can not speak for others, but I see a concern that public waffling about these events could be purposefully done as an excuse to eventually lead to war. Just review this thread to see how NCI has already been branded an "aggressive" "xenophobe". As I stated in my last post, there remain diplomatic solutions to this issue. Throwing hands up in the air and claiming war is unavoidable would justify the concerns of observers. I'm consufed. Wasn't WKE's starting this thread an attempt at a "diplomatic solution"? What I see here is you saying that he must attempt diplomacy, and when he does you brand the attempt as a "purposeful excuse" for war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Aleen Empire Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Clan Elder 'Keen...are you "FOR REAL"!!! Scuttle the ship... Don't Map the system... Get real...roleplaying is one thing, ...but these comments are pure BS and stink to high heaven...DUDE!!! You and everyone else on this list knows your FULL OF IT..you would NOT do either of these options, but you have the BRASS BALLS to advise him to do this...get real my friend and stop smoking that weed The best option is to do the following: 1) Scan the system...who knows maybe this WP is a "F" WP or etc... 2) Send/dispatch a Explorer fleet that has a JSS to SURV that wp 3) Keep in game sending request contact 4) When you can...LEAVE system Now hopefully if this position is a currently ACTIVE player and not a GM run DROPPED position you will eventually hear from them. As to all this other Zazz BS...give me a break!!! This was a mistake and the player came forward and posted about it and still wants to resolve this peacefully. Why the rest of you bad mouthing either WKE or the GSL is simply amazing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 See, by trying to argue a particular point or two (or three or four :lol: ) I have been totally misunderstood. I do not see the GSL or its stated ideals as naive or silly. However, if I see inconsistancies, hipocricy, abuse, potential abuse, etc. I obviously have no problem separating myself from the issue and pointing them out. It's not about trying to slander or discredit the GSL. It's more about seeing if the members of the GSL are going to live up to its ideals. I mentioned these conerns way back when the formation of the GSL was first announced on the old board. I don't remember exactly but it may have even been before the first turn was run. So here we are many turns later and at the first signs of conflict I see some of my initial concerns coming to light. The Exelonian Concordium/NSI deal is a prime example. I'm glad you brought up Star Trek. I guess it's just my interpretation but I certainly don't see the Federation (of Star Trek) handling this (and other proposed situations) like I'm seeing and hearing. Especially considering WKE's latest statement "My only other choice is to become aggressive and hunt down his other ships." Being shot at by an alien in his own territory who does not want to communicate with you would not be a reason for all out war to the Federation. I know the GSL and WKE are not the Federation. I also would not expect WKE to wait till the NSI came blazing out three or four systems before finally treating him as a threat. But come on, you don't have any proof (or at least havn't revealed any) that the NSI is doing anything but defending his territory. If the members of the GSL are supposed to be like minded and they are truely interested in maintaining peace, this certainly is not the way to go about it. If it's done anything it has assured a war (especially with his last statement - either talk to me or I kill you). If WKE is supposed to be the "Good Guy" (and if he's not then why is he in the GSL, maybe just to participate in the info sharing?) then it is up to him to prevent the situation from escalating. And contrary to popular belief, you do NOT need verbal communication to prevent a war. Actions speak louder than words. I say that the ball is in WKE's court. If he wants a war, he's got it. If he wants to maintain peace, he has a chance to do that too. Although I do admit that the chance is slim, as a "Good Guy" I think he ought to at least try. How do you do that when the guy will not communicate verbally? Be creative. I'm sure you and other members of the GSL can come up with something. At the very least you could quit sending ships into his system. If he then attacks out... well that's another matter entirely. Dwillard: "See, by trying to argue a particular point or two (or three or four :lol: ) I have been totally misunderstood. I do not see the GSL or its stated ideals as naive or silly. However, if I see inconsistancies, hipocricy, abuse, potential abuse, etc. I obviously have no problem separating myself from the issue and pointing them out. It's not about trying to slander or discredit the GSL. It's more about seeing if the members of the GSL are going to live up to its ideals." Mmm Hmm. No anti-GSL bias. Check. Dwillard: "So here we are many turns later and at the first signs of conflict I see some of my initial concerns coming to light. The Exelonian Concordium/NSI deal is a prime example. " "A prime example" is an interesting choice of words. It implies there are other examples. List them please. Dwillard: "Especially considering WKE's latest statement "My only other choice is to become aggressive and hunt down his other ships." Being shot at by an alien in his own territory who does not want to communicate with you would not be a reason for all out war to the Federation. " Oops. Given that you are not biased against the GSL, I'm sure your flagrantly taking WKE's remarks out of context was an inadvertant mistake. Here is the paragraph that your quote was taken from: [WKE: If NSI would just contact me, I'm sure something could be worked out. I'm even willing to compensate him to make up for some of the loss, even give him some NTWD's. I am open to discussions here. My only other choice is to become aggressive and start hunting down his ships (like his fleet scouts exploring planets I encountered in a second star system that I never fired on a left alone, moving on....). And that's not my style of play] Help me out here, since I'm a bit slow, but it seems that WKE's remarks in context had a diametrically opposite meaning to the manner in which that single sentence was presented in your post. But you're not actually biased against the GSL. So you wouldn't put a spin on anything. I'll take your word for that. - woolfe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Dwillard: "See, by trying to argue a particular point or two (or three or four ) I have been totally misunderstood. I do not see the GSL or its stated ideals as naive or silly. However, if I see inconsistancies, hipocricy, abuse, potential abuse, etc. I obviously have no problem separating myself from the issue and pointing them out. It's not about trying to slander or discredit the GSL. It's more about seeing if the members of the GSL are going to live up to its ideals." Mmm Hmm. No anti-GSL bias. Check. Dwillard: "So here we are many turns later and at the first signs of conflict I see some of my initial concerns coming to light. The Exelonian Concordium/NSI deal is a prime example. " "A prime example" is an interesting choice of words. It implies there are other examples. List them please. Dwillard: "Especially considering WKE's latest statement "My only other choice is to become aggressive and hunt down his other ships." Being shot at by an alien in his own territory who does not want to communicate with you would not be a reason for all out war to the Federation. " Oops. Given that you are not biased against the GSL, I'm sure your flagrantly taking WKE's remarks out of context was an inadvertant mistake. Here is the paragraph that your quote was taken from: [WKE: If NSI would just contact me, I'm sure something could be worked out. I'm even willing to compensate him to make up for some of the loss, even give him some NTWD's. I am open to discussions here. My only other choice is to become aggressive and start hunting down his ships (like his fleet scouts exploring planets I encountered in a second star system that I never fired on a left alone, moving on....). And that's not my style of play] Help me out here, since I'm a bit slow, but it seems that WKE's remarks in context had a diametrically opposite meaning to the manner in which that single sentence was presented in your post. But you're not actually biased against the GSL. So you wouldn't put a spin on anything. I'll take your word for that. - woolfe Here we go again. What amazes me is the number of GSL players who leap up to defend the collective while saying he is a player and can do what he wants. In response: 1. "Prime Example" - Well he did say prime maybe he should have said a classic example. Arguing about the adjective instead of the noun is not very helpful. If you take prime out it still is an example of one of DWILLARDs concerns. You have not countered it. 2. WKE says he has two choices. Choice 1 is NSI communicates and he compensates NSI for the kills or Choice 2 he hunts him down. Hmm What about leave him alone, What about set up a permiter and respect NSIs wish to be left alone. 3. Actually the comments are 100% accurate. WKE says he has two choices. I can give you a third...leave NSI alone. Has that been considered? Has that been discussed? Is that actually a choice that WKE will take or is he just interested in a fight. Amazing...... Maybe WKE or a spokesperson for the GSL should step up and discuss. All of those in favor of WKEs actions are GSL members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Dwillard: "See, by trying to argue a particular point or two (or three or four ) I have been totally misunderstood. I do not see the GSL or its stated ideals as naive or silly. However, if I see inconsistancies, hipocricy, abuse, potential abuse, etc. I obviously have no problem separating myself from the issue and pointing them out. It's not about trying to slander or discredit the GSL. It's more about seeing if the members of the GSL are going to live up to its ideals." Mmm Hmm. No anti-GSL bias. Check. Dwillard: "So here we are many turns later and at the first signs of conflict I see some of my initial concerns coming to light. The Exelonian Concordium/NSI deal is a prime example. " "A prime example" is an interesting choice of words. It implies there are other examples. List them please. Dwillard: "Especially considering WKE's latest statement "My only other choice is to become aggressive and hunt down his other ships." Being shot at by an alien in his own territory who does not want to communicate with you would not be a reason for all out war to the Federation. " Oops. Given that you are not biased against the GSL, I'm sure your flagrantly taking WKE's remarks out of context was an inadvertant mistake. Here is the paragraph that your quote was taken from: [WKE: If NSI would just contact me, I'm sure something could be worked out. I'm even willing to compensate him to make up for some of the loss, even give him some NTWD's. I am open to discussions here. My only other choice is to become aggressive and start hunting down his ships (like his fleet scouts exploring planets I encountered in a second star system that I never fired on a left alone, moving on....). And that's not my style of play] Help me out here, since I'm a bit slow, but it seems that WKE's remarks in context had a diametrically opposite meaning to the manner in which that single sentence was presented in your post. But you're not actually biased against the GSL. So you wouldn't put a spin on anything. I'll take your word for that. - woolfe Here we go again. What amazes me is the number of GSL players who leap up to defend the collective while saying he is a player and can do what he wants. In response: 1. "Prime Example" - Well he did say prime maybe he should have said a classic example. Arguing about the adjective instead of the noun is not very helpful. If you take prime out it still is an example of one of DWILLARDs concerns. You have not countered it. 2. WKE says he has two choices. Choice 1 is NSI communicates and he compensates NSI for the kills or Choice 2 he hunts him down. Hmm What about leave him alone, What about set up a permiter and respect NSIs wish to be left alone. 3. Actually the comments are 100% accurate. WKE says he has two choices. I can give you a third...leave NSI alone. Has that been considered? Has that been discussed? Is that actually a choice that WKE will take or is he just interested in a fight. Amazing...... Maybe WKE or a spokesperson for the GSL should step up and discuss. All of those in favor of WKEs actions are GSL members. I want to hear from Dwillard regarding his taking WKE's remarks out of context. I find it amusing that Martin criticizes the GSL for "leaping" to each others aid, but sees fit to leap to the aid of others who are critizing the GSL. Let Dwillard speak for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan Elder 'Keen Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Clan Elder 'Keen...are you "FOR REAL"!!! Scuttle the ship... Don't Map the system... Get real...roleplaying is one thing, ...but these comments are pure BS and stink to high heaven...DUDE!!! You and everyone else on this list knows your FULL OF IT..you would NOT do either of these options, but you have the BRASS BALLS to advise him to do this...get real my friend and stop smoking that weed The best option is to do the following: 1) Scan the system...who knows maybe this WP is a "F" WP or etc... 2) Send/dispatch a Explorer fleet that has a JSS to SURV that wp 3) Keep in game sending request contact 4) When you can...LEAVE system Now hopefully if this position is a currently ACTIVE player and not a GM run DROPPED position you will eventually hear from them. As to all this other Zazz BS...give me a break!!! This was a mistake and the player came forward and posted about it and still wants to resolve this peacefully. Why the rest of you bad mouthing either WKE or the GSL is simply amazing! I take offensive to your words and your tone. If you carefully and dispassionately review my words, you will see that I offered two courses of non-aggressive action that immediately came to mind. You obviously don't think much of the first, and yet throw back a response which is identical to my second. "Why the rest of you bad mouthing either WKE or the GSL is simply amazing! " That is simply not true, I have not bad mouthed anyone. You are bristling with partisan reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurassier Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Before anybody pegs me as a GSL supporter or secret GSL member, please note that I HAVE declared my allegiance, just look to your left. Several different posts (could be the same person, not going to waste the time to find out) have criticized the GSL for all running together and supporting their fellow member. Isn't that one of the purposes of an alliance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserwolf Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 What if NSI is Pete's or Russ' position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurassier Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Then I would invite the NSI to join the HBOB so we could sit down and share ALL of our Tech knowledge over a cold brew..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 After reading the subtitle of this post, I have a question for WKE: Any luck in communicating with NSI after this epic thread? :lol: Imagine having the patience to quiety tolerate 9 pages of posts about your empire. Which leads to the following possiblities: 1) NSI is a pen and paper player, away from the internet 2) NSI is simply ignoring all of our verbiage (who can blame him ) 3) NSI hasnt found these boards yet 4) NSI is on "auto-pilot" and the code establishes protocal for aggressively defending its warp points 5) NSI is somebody's second position - and the primary player is having a ball 6) NSI is a figment of WKE's imagination and an elaborate invention designed to stir up propoganda I vote #2, personally - but my second choice would be #5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 7) NSI is actually WKE's second position, and he concocted the whole scenario to test out the combat system, then brought it to the boards to see how long a thread it would create. That's my personal favorite theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuth Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Quotes from Lord High Seneschal to Ur-Lord Tedric 4) {and a new one for the thread to discuss}... Systems are not "territory". Systems are merely waypoints on the journey from here to there. We wish to explore and we come in peace, therefore there is no reason to prevent us going from here to there. The HW+2 is merely a generally accepted sphere of influence that we all recognise as a normal economic resource area. It can be bigger, we make no claims. If you have colonised planets for mining, then they are yours alone - unless you wish to share. I disagree. Systems are territory, it may be vast, but its still territory. What if I don't want you to come into my system to do a system scan because there's a Dyson's Sphere or something magnificent that I want to keep private from everyone else. That is my right. Take our world for instance, you think any country is going to LET any plane just fly over their country just because its a straighter line (waypoint) to get from one location to another. No, they're going to defend their airspace until they identify who the intruder is and keep them away, or worst case, shot them down. 5) If, for whatever reason, you wish to not allow us to enter some systems at all, then you have to tell us. We do not accept that destroying our ships is telling us - it is naked aggression and xenophobia. No Star League ship will carry on past marked border posts without permission, nor I believe will any other GSL members. If you move into an unknown region of space and get blown away, I'm sorry the message is clear. "Get out and don't come back!" Not everyone has to communicate like you do. Mutes don't communicate verbally like we do, do they? However, if communication fails after several attempts, it is reasonable to assume that such quiet ships are possibly derelict and the empire is as dead as the rest of the T'ckon. How you tell us, is entirely up to you. Yes, the easy way is to find a GSL member and give them a list. Then other GSL members will be told before they warp in. If not, then just put border fleets in place and say so each time you come accross one. We come in peace and stand at our word. Come one, come all, you will not find us wanting. The purpose of the alliance as a whole, is to provide a bastion against the dark and a refuge in adversity. The only promise that we would ever make that could look even remotely aggressive is that we will, severally and together, hunt down and destroy enemies of civilisation. I'm sorry, if it's shooting back, its not derelict nor is the empire dead (btw, we don't know if all the T'Ckon race is dead either, do we ) As long as one person stands for that empire, the empire lives. True, the "easy" way to tell you is to hand over our address book of galactic residency but not everyone agrees with that. Its any invasion of privacy and a matter of empirical security. It is everyone's right to "freely" choose how they communicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuth Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 Plus remember to, it was WKE whom brought this up, and if he were doing something mean/nasty/dark...he would have said nothing at all...AND NO ONE would have ever known. This little detail seems to be total forgotten , WKE is the one still seeking contact with this player position. Ahhh, but someone else does know....the NSI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuth Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 Clan Elder 'Keen...are you "FOR REAL"!!! Scuttle the ship... Don't Map the system... Get real...roleplaying is one thing, ...but these comments are pure BS and stink to high heaven...DUDE!!! You and everyone else on this list knows your FULL OF IT..you would NOT do either of these options, but you have the BRASS BALLS to advise him to do this...get real my friend and stop smoking that weed The best option is to do the following: 1) Scan the system...who knows maybe this WP is a "F" WP or etc... 2) Send/dispatch a Explorer fleet that has a JSS to SURV that wp 3) Keep in game sending request contact 4) When you can...LEAVE system Now hopefully if this position is a currently ACTIVE player and not a GM run DROPPED position you will eventually hear from them. As to all this other Zazz BS...give me a break!!! This was a mistake and the player came forward and posted about it and still wants to resolve this peacefully. Why the rest of you bad mouthing either WKE or the GSL is simply amazing! Relax dude. Here, have a cold...or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuth Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 "Why the rest of you bad mouthing either WKE or the GSL is simply amazing! " Nobody is bad mouthing anyone here. It all about actions, peoples view, protocol, communication, and the definitions of isolationism and xenophobia, and the right they have (or don't have) in "EACH individuals opinion." True GSL and WKE have been at the center of attention with this, but what's most interesting is what there views, policies and opinions have been regarding the rights of an Empire (of a sort) and how they should conduct themselves, in their opinion of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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